my new K&K signal chain - please critique

[sublro]

so a few things up front.

guitar = taylor 324 with K&K PWMini
destination is a mixer with gain and 3 band eq, or sometimes my fishman loudbox artist amp.

I just got the fishman platinum pro eq and like it a lot. HOWEVER, I understand and have experience with the propensity of the K&K to put out a LOT of bass and low mid, a very hot signal that can overdrive gain circuits on first place in the signal chain when played percussively, and also understand the impedence mismatch issue between the K&K and the fishman's 10 meg ohm input.

So to be clear up front, I DO subscribe to the notion, based on personal experience, that the K&K impedence mismatch thing is a real cause of less-than-consistent performance and reduced ease of use for K&K, so not looking to debate whether that's a thing...

so, what I'm considering is moving my MXR 10-band (which i try to keep set flat and use a quick, visual-friendly, on-the-fly adjust in gig situations) to the front of the signal chain, so that its 1 Megohm input is first in the chain.

so it would look like

guitar --> MXR EQ --> fishman PlatPro (FPP) --> FPP effects send to all other effects --> FPP effects return --> FPP out to board (either xlr or 1/4 inch - yet to be determined, feel free to share opinions)


All critiques / ideas / opinions welcome :-)

[guitaniac]

Doesn't the MXR EQ have a level control? If that's the case, and if you don't use the FPP's compression, then the only big advantage of having it in the signal chain would be for a signal phase inversion if needed.

Do you know the EFX boxes input impedance? If its 1 Mohm, you could try putting it directly after the guitar and before the FPP in the signal chain - presuming you can get adequate EQ control from the FPP and the MXR EQ isn't needed.


FWIW, I've used the K&K PWM in the past and do indeed recall that it was noticeably less bassy with a Boss Graphic EQ (1 Mohm input impedance) than with my old 1st generation Platinum Pro EQ.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by sublro

so a few things up front.

guitar = taylor 324 with K&K PWMini
destination is a mixer with gain and 3 band eq, or sometimes my fishman loudbox artist amp.

I just got the fishman platinum pro eq and like it a lot. HOWEVER, I understand and have experience with the propensity of the K&K to put out a LOT of bass and low mid, a very hot signal that can overdrive gain circuits on first place in the signal chain when played percussively, and also understand the impedence mismatch issue between the K&K and the fishman's 10 meg ohm input.

So to be clear up front, I DO subscribe to the notion, based on personal experience, that the K&K impedence mismatch thing is a real cause of less-than-consistent performance and reduced ease of use for K&K, so not looking to debate whether that's a thing...

so, what I'm considering is moving my MXR 10-band (which i try to keep set flat and use a quick, visual-friendly, on-the-fly adjust in gig situations) to the front of the signal chain, so that its 1 Megohm input is first in the chain.

so it would look like

guitar --> MXR EQ --> fishman PlatPro (FPP) --> FPP effects send to all other effects --> FPP effects return --> FPP out to board (either xlr or 1/4 inch - yet to be determined, feel free to share opinions)


All critiques / ideas / opinions welcome :-)

I'm not really sure I understand why you're asking this question. Either you're having some problem going into the Fishman Pro directly or you're not. If you are, either going through the MXR first will solve that problem or it won't. Try putting the MXR EQ first. Does that solve the problem?

Also: is this the MXR unit you have? https://vidweb.aws.marketlive.com/ji...uals/M108S.pdf

It looks like the input impedance is even lower than you say above (470k Ohms, not 1 M Ohm). But it does have true bypass switching, so you should be able to tell right away with a few foot taps what effect it has on the signal as opposed to going direct into the Fishman.

Louis

[martingitdave]

I would ditch the FPP if you are happy with what the MXR gives you in terms of control. If not, what you are suggesting is fine. I think there are also some chromatic tuners that also have 1 MOHM which might be a good first pedal in the chain.

[sublro]

Originally Posted by lschwart

I'm not really sure I understand why you're asking this question. Either you're having some problem going into the Fishman Pro directly or you're not. If you are, either going through the MXR first will solve that problem or it won't. Try putting the MXR EQ first. Does that solve the problem?

Louis

Hi Louis - appreciate your reading and responding - due respect, often an approach that solves one problem (which i think likely this will) can cause others, or at least have effects worth considering as pro/con - so I'm asking those with experience with this problem set and these specific tools to weigh in. it goes beyond whether the switch in signal chain appears to make the problem go away in the immediate... a problem which by the way, may not always manifest, which can complicate further the approach you are advocating.

I'm trying to leverage the collective experience base and get out in front of issues I maybe don't see to shorten the learning curve and get to the rig that's going to be most likely to work in a variety of circumstances. hope that makes sense.

[sublro]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I would ditch the FPP if you are happy with what the MXR gives you in terms of control. If not, what you are suggesting is fine. I think there are also some chromatic tuners that also have 1 MOHM which might be a good first pedal in the chain.

I get that, though the FPP has significant tools that the MXR does not - a sweepable mid control, phase switch, notch control and compression. these can all be very useful in cleaning up the tonal anomolies that can come from the K&K.

the other reason I'm leaning toward the MXR rather than a tuner is that it has 18v, which my understanding is will lend a big increase in headroom. I had another really good preamp for a while that when I used it on 9v would have terrible overload bursts when I hit the bridge during aggressive playing and when I went to 18v power on it, problem solved....

[sublro]

Also: is this the MXR unit you have? https://vidweb.aws.marketlive.com/ji...uals/M108S.pdf

It looks like the input impedance is even lower than you say above (470k Ohms, not 1 M Ohm). But it does have true bypass switching, so you should be able to tell right away with a few foot taps what effect it has on the signal as opposed to going direct into the Fishman.

Louis

actually not, it's the one previous to this update, that does not have tru bypass...

corrrect on the input impedence, I was just being lazy about typring and 1megohm was close enough for this discsussion ;-)

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by sublro

Hi Louis - appreciate your reading and responding - due respect, often an approach that solves one problem (which i think likely this will) can cause others, or at least have effects worth considering as pro/con - so I'm asking those with experience with this problem set and these specific tools to weigh in. it goes beyond whether the switch in signal chain appears to make the problem go away in the immediate... a problem which by the way, may not always manifest, which can complicate further the approach you are advocating.

I'm trying to leverage the collective experience base and get out in front of issues I maybe don't see to shorten the learning curve and get to the rig that's going to be most likely to work in a variety of circumstances. hope that makes sense.

I can't see how using the MXR as a buffer ahead of the Fishman would create any new problems beyond maybe introducing a little more noise into your signal chain.

That said, I'd only do it that way if I were experiencing a real problem going direct into the Fishman. I'd expect the trim on the Fishman to give you enough control to keep big spikes from your percussing playing from overdriving the input. But if not, then try the MXR first and see. You won't set yourself up for other problems that way. Just a more complicated set up.

Louis

[gfirob]

I wonder if you have considered a Tonedexter rather than the two boxes, if EQ and impedance matching is the concern. The Tonedexter has its own modest Eq after the Tonedexteriztion and works very well with the K&K (I say this as a shameless Tonedexter fanboy).

[jonfields45]

Speaking as an electrical engineer, nothing beats trying it both ways and going with the one you like best.

It seems the EQ pedal is exactly the K&K recommendation and the Fishman pedal is roughly 10x the 1M target. But in reality neither pedal was probably tested in manufacture for that spec and given our hearing is logarithmic, 10M is not really that far off 1M (100K to 10M is logarithmic-ally in the ball park of a 1M spec).

The only thing I would state categorically is a K&K will sound bad into a typical 10K ohm line input and a 3K ohm mic input.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Speaking as an electrical engineer, nothing beats trying it both ways and going with the one you like best.

It seems the EQ pedal is exactly the K&K recommendation and the Fishman pedal is roughly 10x the 1M target. But in reality neither pedal was probably tested in manufacture for that spec and given our hearing is logarithmic, 10M is not really that far off 1M (100K to 10M is logarithmic-ally in the ball park of a 1M spec).

The only thing I would state categorically is a K&K will sound bad into a typical 10K ohm line input and a 3K ohm mic input.

This has been my experience too. In fact, I am currently debating this very topic with another EE friend who wants me to buffer my K&K signal before going into a device with an input impedance of 100K. I'm of the position that it sounds OK to me. He's concerned there is too much low cut. On the other hand, I tend to hear too much bass at 10Meg.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

This has been my experience too. In fact, I am currently debating this very topic with another EE friend who wants me to buffer my K&K signal before going into a device with an input impedance of 100K. I'm of the position that it sounds OK to me. He's concerned there is too much low cut. On the other hand, I tend to hear too much bass at 10Meg.

No shortage of audiophiles and super hear-ers among engineers too :~)! I have a friend whose son is a super taster and he is adamant about it too. But if you can hear it, then it is real for you and taking appropriate action makes sense to me. I have been able to reproduce that strange low pass effect with a K&K into a very high input impedance. But I think the problem is somewhat guitar/install sensitive (the heads have to be out of phase and/or not amplitude matched for higher frequencies and the input impedance has to be >10M and not dominated by capacitance -- it turns out that is hard but not impossible to design).

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

No shortage of audiophiles and super hear-ers among engineers too :~)! I have a friend whose son is a super taster and he is adamant about it too. But if you can hear it, then it is real for you and taking appropriate action makes sense to me.

I certainly do not qualify as a super hear-er. :-).

[buzzardwhiskey]

I had the 10 band EQ and sold it almost immediately. Too much hiss for my tastes.

[sublro]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

This has been my experience too. In fact, I am currently debating this very topic with another EE friend who wants me to buffer my K&K signal before going into a device with an input impedance of 100K. I'm of the position that it sounds OK to me. He's concerned there is too much low cut. On the other hand, I tend to hear too much bass at 10Meg.

I've also developed the opinion through this whole quest that sound equipment imparts too much bass to "acoustic" tone anyway. we tend to want to hear more bass through a PA than we'd ever get from a natural acoustic guitar sound, and so I've also taken more recently to using the high pass filters offered on my favorite preamps.

reducing the amount of bass you include in a K&K signal is always a good thing both for obvious bass overload feedback but also the more intermittent "wonky" low mids that can happen sometimes and not other depending on the specifics of a given venue or night.