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  #16  
Old 01-15-2020, 01:53 PM
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Wolfram Wolfram is online now
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I don't understand - why has this patent been granted on the use of a non-novel material (that is in fact patented by someone else - Dupont) in a non-novel application? Vespel is just a material, it has many uses; and guitar picks have been around for a little while!

It's one thing if the material is a necessary part of a novel invention, or if the material itself is novel, but this is no different than someone patenting richlite for fingerboards or new back/side wood on a guitar.

In fact, I am surprised that Dupont allows the use of its material in a whole class of product to be patented. Almost every jet engine made in the West includes Vespel parts - what if the first company to think of using Vespel as a bearing could have patented the Vespel bearing? It seems that would have been seriously detrimental to Dupont's business.

Guitar picks are small fry, and I don't know what Charmed Life's sales are compared to Blue Chip, but they are distinct products: Blue Chip make bevelled picks, while Charmed Life make radiused picks. It is no longer possible to buy a radiused Vespel pick, and will remain that way unless Blue Chip start making one. Not everyone who would have bought a Charmed Life will buy a Blue Chip, so this patent has negatively impacted Dupont's business.

Scott has said before that there are hundreds of engineering plastics that have never been used as a guitar pick, and he has investigated some. Should a pick maker like me or Scott really be able to point at an off-the-shelf material and patent it for use in our picks?

By all means, patent something new and innovative, but I find the claim that this kind of thing can be patented distasteful.

Cheers,
David
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  #17  
Old 01-15-2020, 01:56 PM
HeyMikey HeyMikey is offline
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Maybe Fender should patent the first use of any brown colored manufactured material pick and serve BC notice.
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  #18  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:15 PM
619TF 619TF is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfram View Post
I don't understand - why has this patent been granted on the use of a non-novel material (that is in fact patented by someone else - Dupont) in a non-novel application? Vespel is just a material, it has many uses; and guitar picks have been around for a little while!

It's one thing if the material is a necessary part of a novel invention, or if the material itself is novel, but this is no different than someone patenting richlite for fingerboards or new back/side wood on a guitar.

In fact, I am surprised that Dupont allows the use of its material in a whole class of product to be patented. Almost every jet engine made in the West includes Vespel parts - what if the first company to think of using Vespel as a bearing could have patented the Vespel bearing? It seems that would have been seriously detrimental to Dupont's business.

Guitar picks are small fry, and I don't know what Charmed Life's sales are compared to Blue Chip, but they are distinct products: Blue Chip make bevelled picks, while Charmed Life make radiused picks. It is no longer possible to buy a radiused Vespel pick, and will remain that way unless Blue Chip start making one. Not everyone who would have bought a Charmed Life will buy a Blue Chip, so this patent has negatively impacted Dupont's business.

Scott has said before that there are hundreds of engineering plastics that have never been used as a guitar pick, and he has investigated some. Should a pick maker like me or Scott really be able to point at an off-the-shelf material and patent it for use in our picks?

By all means, patent something new and innovative, but I find the claim that this kind of thing can be patented distasteful.

Cheers,
David
Nobody claimed this was a novel invention per se. The novelty is the use of the material and the changes that means to a pick. What it means, and what's been recognized by the USPTO is a novel application of the material and an admittedly minor innovation in picks. Enough to qualify for a patent obviously. If it's still confusing then I'd recommend you read my prior post. If you still don't get how this patent was approved and why then I'd recommend a study on Patents. As to your example, if in fact the material you pointed out hasn't yet been used for what you're applying it to (here it's guitar picks but it could be anything else) then yes, you may get a patent.

As the material in question here is itself a patented product the new patent claimer must refer to that material (which they did), claim a new use of that material (which they are), be the first to do so (apparently that applies here) and it's highly likely they're paying the original patent holder some sort of fee. Oh, they are also allowed now to LICENSE the use of their patent to others. Simply allowing others to do it without any attempt to enforce the Patent means they'd lose all of it.

Last edited by 619TF; 01-15-2020 at 02:27 PM.
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  #19  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:22 PM
HodgdonExtreme HodgdonExtreme is offline
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The patent isn't just for Vespel.

It is for any polyimide material - which is any ring structure polymer with a Nitrogen atom involved.

Patent names Vespel, Meldis and Plavis, but only as examples of specific "trademarked" polyimide materials.
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  #20  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:29 PM
619TF 619TF is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyMikey View Post
Maybe Fender should patent the first use of any brown colored manufactured material pick and serve BC notice.
To be fair, Leo Fender did patent things like "guitar neck", "guitar saddle", "guitar headstock", "string posts", "truss rod assembly" and other things like that despite guitars being around long before. https://patents.justia.com/inventor/c-leo-fender
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  #21  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:29 PM
jaymarsch jaymarsch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme View Post
The patent isn't just for Vespel.

It is for any polyimide material - which is any ring structure polymer with a Nitrogen atom involved.

Patent names Vespel, Meldis and Plavis, but only as examples of specific "trademarked" polyimide materials.
Vespel, Meldis & Plavis. I think they may have done my taxes a number of years ago...All kidding aside, I do hope there is a workable solution that happily keeps the availability of various pick options. I am a customer of both companies, also have a couple of Wolfram's fine picks, and I am an optimist at heart so I'll wait and see how it shakes out.

Best,
Jayne
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2020, 02:53 PM
jaymarsch jaymarsch is offline
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Great idea you've got boycotting Blue Chip, we should all join in!
Just an FYI for those following here: I had a brief email exchange with Scott and he is opposed to the idea of boycotting Blue Chip. As he said in his post here (#13), the matter is not concluded and he is in a process of looking at options - none of which have to do with throwing any shade at Blue Chip. As he as always done, Scott is taking the high road here and I am sure that he will keep us posted when it is appropriate to do so.

Best,
Jayne
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2020, 04:54 PM
Dwight Dwight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymarsch View Post
Just an FYI for those following here: I had a brief email exchange with Scott and he is opposed to the idea of boycotting Blue Chip. As he said in his post here (#13), the matter is not concluded and he is in a process of looking at options - none of which have to do with throwing any shade at Blue Chip. As he as always done, Scott is taking the high road here and I am sure that he will keep us posted when it is appropriate to do so.

Best,
Jayne
I think it's appropriate as consumers to have competition in the marketplace. Who's this BC guy to say he's the only one to make a guitar pick. It doesn't matter that Scott is opposed we should throw shade!
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  #24  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:16 PM
619TF 619TF is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
I think it's appropriate as consumers to have competition in the marketplace. Who's this BC guy to say he's the only one to make a guitar pick. It doesn't matter that Scott is opposed we should throw shade!
If the comment was true I'd be with ya. Unfortunately they're not saying they're the only ones who can make a pick. They are legally obligated to stop others from making a pick from the same materials. Therefore, no boycott and I truly respect Scott's position. His comments here were inspirational in the way he is dealing with the situation.
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  #25  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:28 PM
B. Adams B. Adams is offline
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It looks like the patent was applied for in 2008. My guess is they started making picks from leftover Vespel and said to themselves, "Hey, this works great, we should patent it!" So they filed a patent application, and also brought their picks to market. I don't know when exactly they started selling picks, but after a brief search I couldn't find any mention of Blue Chip before 2008, so I'm guessing these events coincide with each other.

The patent process took forever, and others (Charmed Life, specifically) got into the business of Vespel picks. For some reason the patent was granted a few months ago, and became active today, almost 12 years after the initial application.

On one hand, it seems a little silly that something so basic now has a patent, which sucks for Charmed Life since they were Blue Chips main (only?) direct competitor. I appreciate his dignified response to Blue Chip in this situation, it really says a lot about his character and his company.

On the other hand, Blue Chip had a very original idea in 2008, and now they have the exclusive rights to that idea for a while (well, a little over 17 years). They've waited a very long time for this, and now they have something to show for it.

I'm under the impression that no one is making a fortune with Vespel picks, including Blue Chip, even at the current price of $35. That was also the price of their picks in 2008, as far as I can tell, so they it seems like they haven't kept up with inflation.
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  #26  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:32 PM
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As almost always, there's probably two sides to the story and we've yet to hear either. Scott is tops in my book for the way he's handling the situation. On the other hand, I'm sure BC would have something to say about the patent that may not have been said or thought of here at AGF headquarters.

Wishing the best for both parties!
scott
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 619TF View Post
Therefore, no boycott and I truly respect Scott's position. His comments here were inspirational in the way he is dealing with the situation.
I respect Scott all the more because he respect's Matthew's intellectual property. They both seem to be doing business right, and both they offer an exceptional product.
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  #28  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:54 PM
valleyguy valleyguy is offline
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Geez, is there a patent for picks made from plastic? Or nylon, delrin, celluloid, wood, stone, tortex? I could go on and on.......
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  #29  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:03 PM
ALBD ALBD is offline
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I’m sure I will get trashed for this, but I can’t help but respond to the calls to boycott BC.

CLP has known about BCs patent from nearly day one and chose to essentially copy their product anyway. The only reason CLP does not bevel is because it is too difficult for a small operation.

So did CLP made some efforts to approach BC before hitting the market and work out some sort of agreement, or did CLP basically ignore the patent and forge ahead. If CLP just ignored the patent then how can anyone even suggest boycotting BC for simply enforcing a legally valid patent (assuming it is)??

Now if BC has reneged on some agreement with CLP after CLP started gaining some traction, that would be a different matter.
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  #30  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:18 PM
KESTLY KESTLY is offline
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Default A patent on Vespel guitar picks?

I vote BOYCOTT!!! It's the right thing to do.
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