The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-28-2020, 01:45 PM
guitarman68 guitarman68 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Posts: 220
Default pickup comparison: K&K vs. Schatten HFN in one and the same guitar

Hi fellows,

widely discussed here at AGF: Which SBT should be the right one in one particular guitar.
I took the chance:Right before deinstalling the K&K from my vintage Martin 0-17 I recorded it - and did the same some 40 minutes later, after installing a Schatten HFN.
I like K&K in some of my instruments, but never could like the amplified sound in this old Martin box. Knowing the different sonic qualities of Schatten, K&K, Dazzo and UltraTonic very well, I decided to give the Schatten a try. Dazzo and UltraTonic - both would have been great choices - are hard to get here in Germany.
Both pickups are the passive kind, so I used the RedEye preamp with the treble knob set to 12 0'clock.
No EQ, reverb, compression ... was used. Recorded directly to DAW (Logic Audio, RME Fireface interface)
I would love to hear what you think about the result.

https://youtu.be/bdB7NzNo0F4

__________________

Pre-War Guitars D28 (Dazzo/DPA 4061), Merrill C28 (UltraTonic), Merrill OM28 (Dazzo/DPA 4061), Merrill OM18 (Schatten HFN), Martin D18 (1948 - Dazzo/DPA 4061), Martin 017 (1934 - Schatten HFN)
mandolin family, dobro, weissenborn, lap steel, 5-string banjo
preamps:
Sunnaudio MS-2, EA X6, Grace Felix, ToneDexter, RedEye, Fishman Platinum Pro EQ, Pendulum SPS-1
QSC TM 16, K8.2, K12.2

Last edited by guitarman68; 05-28-2020 at 01:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:01 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,364
Default

Both sound really good IMO but the Schatten sounds incredible in this comparison. This is the first time where I thought the HFN had more than enough bass. It's a great match!

The HFN is such a frustration for me because I love the tone and the concept but I just can't get the bass out of it that I need. I wanted to pair it with a UST and literally blend in about 10% of the UST to get some low end but the HFN occupies the same space where the wire comes out of the bottom of the saddle slot. I really want to experiment more as I believe the HFN might be the best sounding pickup available, the string balance is just annoying.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:14 PM
Br1ck Br1ck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 3,005
Default

This is the beauty of Dazzo. Get the one perfect for your guitar and be done with it.
__________________
2007 Martin D 35 Custom
1970 Guild D 35
1965 Epiphone Texan
2014 Martin 00 15 12 fret custom
Pono OP 30 D parlor
Pono OP12-30
Pono MT uke
Goldtone Paul Beard squareneck resophonic
Fluke tenor ukulele
Boatload of home rolled telecasters

"Shut up and play your guitar" Frank Zappa
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:36 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,364
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
This is the beauty of Dazzo. Get the one perfect for your guitar and be done with it.
I am sure itís fine but the beauty of the HFN is the putty/tape install. I also donít feel 100% comfortable gluing in a Dazzo and finding out that the placement is just okay tonally. At least with the K&k thereís a fairly consistent jig to use.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-29-2020, 10:42 AM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 1,126
Default

Nice demo.

The HFN sounds so much closer to the microphone sound than the K+K. A little TondeDexter or other IR would close that gap.

The K+K has that typical midrange bump that people love or hate (I detest it). Nevertheless, it sounds pretty different from the miked signal.

(Petty1818: Dazzo makes a range of pickups with varying bass response. You might talk with Teddy Randazzo, he will probably recommend a specific model for your guitar AND the bass response you desire.)
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-29-2020, 11:27 AM
Monsum Monsum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 407
Default

It proves to me (again) that pickups are so guitar dependent.
Both your samples sound very natural although in a different way.
But the same pickups might not sound as good as this even if acoustically a guitar they are installed in is fine.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-29-2020, 02:32 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
This is the beauty of Dazzo. Get the one perfect for your guitar and be done with it.
Why pay triple the price for a Dazzo that you have to epoxy in place when I don't think it sounds any better, especially for the price difference. I've been getting the best plugged in sound I ever had with the HFN.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-29-2020, 03:53 PM
DownUpDave DownUpDave is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Pickering ON, Canada
Posts: 827
Default

I like the HFN best and as Petty 1818 said the bass was nice and present. I have the HFN installed in two guitars and have been super pleased with the sound. I get very good bass response out of both guitars as well. Your Martin sounds fabulous, very well rounded sound for a small instrument. Thanks for doing that comparison
__________________
Taylor 512e 12 fret, Martin 000-15M, Eastman E15SS, Eastman E100-LTD 12 fret, Larrivee L01, Taylor GS mini walnut, Cordoba C10 crossover, Cordoba Cadete, Too many ukuleles to list
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-29-2020, 06:37 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 1,126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarLuva View Post
Why pay triple the price for a Dazzo that you have to epoxy in place when I don't think it sounds any better, especially for the price difference. I've been getting the best plugged in sound I ever had with the HFN.
Dazzo is $225 USD. Schatten is $112 USD. My math says that is double not triple.

I use both, but in my highest quality instruments I specify Dazzo. I can hear the difference AND it is worth it to me for specific cases.

Since I have my pickups professionally (and permanently) installed, epoxy vs. tape vs. putty isn't an issue (for me).

I think for the majority of players, Schatten is an excellent choice for those looking for a more mic-like tone than a K+K. The price is super for what you get.
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-29-2020, 07:18 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,364
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Currie View Post
Dazzo is $225 USD. Schatten is $112 USD. My math says that is double not triple.

I use both, but in my highest quality instruments I specify Dazzo. I can hear the difference AND it is worth it to me for specific cases.

Since I have my pickups professionally (and permanently) installed, epoxy vs. tape vs. putty isn't an issue (for me).

I think for the majority of players, Schatten is an excellent choice for those looking for a more mic-like tone than a K+K. The price is super for what you get.
We Canadians always have to pay a lot more! A Dazzo would definitely be over $300 and I can get the HFN for close to $100.

I do wonder though, with the Tonedexter as an option, does the price increase to a Dazzo make as much sense anymore? As good as it sounds, it will never sound as mic like as a K&k or HFN with a wavemap.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-29-2020, 07:45 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Currie View Post
Dazzo is $225 USD. Schatten is $112 USD. My math says that is double not triple.

I use both, but in my highest quality instruments I specify Dazzo. I can hear the difference AND it is worth it to me for specific cases.

Since I have my pickups professionally (and permanently) installed, epoxy vs. tape vs. putty isn't an issue (for me).

I think for the majority of players, Schatten is an excellent choice for those looking for a more mic-like tone than a K+K. The price is super for what you get.
Petty pretty much answered already but I'll elaborate. The last HFN I bought I paid $100 CAD + free shipping. A Dazzo for me would be $309 CAD with current exchange rates and probably shipping and import charges on top of that. I guess it would be double for some and more than triple for others. The biggest appeal of the HFN to me is no glue or epoxy and it sounds great and is easy to install/remove. I never heard a Dazzo in person but I have to admit the online demos I watched weren't impressive even taking into account YouTube compression. I don't doubt it's a good pickup, people here speak very highly of them. I vowed after my last K&K experience years ago that I would never use a permanent install medium like super glue or epoxy. YMMV.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-29-2020, 07:58 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 1,126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I do wonder though, with the Tonedexter as an option, does the price increase to a Dazzo make as much sense anymore? As good as it sounds, it will never sound as mic like as a K&k or HFN with a wavemap.
That's news to me, since I own all three pickups and a ToneDexter.
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-29-2020, 08:30 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 1,126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarLuva View Post
I never heard a Dazzo in person but I have to admit the online demos I watched weren't impressive even taking into account YouTube compression. I don't doubt it's a good pickup, people here speak very highly of them. I vowed after my last K&K experience years ago that I would never use a permanent install medium like super glue or epoxy. YMMV.
I think we are in more agreement than disagreement. I think the HFN is the best bang for the buck SBT available, and the best choice for MOST guitarists looking for an SBT.

Good point that the price difference can vary a lot depending on location.

My main point was that there are some people and situations where paying more is justified and even necessary. Leaving aside collectors, there are people who do not see/hear ANY advantage in paying more than $1000 for a guitar, and then others who see (and require) the value in a 3K or 6K instrument.

Who is right? Both points of view, of course.
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-29-2020, 08:46 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Currie View Post
I think we are in more agreement than disagreement. I think the HFN is the best bang for the buck SBT available, and the best choice for MOST guitarists looking for an SBT.

Good point that the price difference can vary a lot depending on location.

My main point was that there are some people and situations where paying more is justified and even necessary. Leaving aside collectors, there are people who do not see/hear ANY advantage in paying more than $1000 for a guitar, and then others who see (and require) the value in a 3K or 6K instrument.

Who is right? Both points of view, of course.
Oh absolutely. I used to chime in on all those "what pickup should I get" threads but eventually gave it up. One lowly guy recommending a HFN vs 20 suggesting a K&K. Nothing wrong with those I've used them but found them frustrating to EQ. The HFN was the first pickup to give me the "guitar only louder" with just the coloring from an acoustic amp. I certainly put the Dazzo in the same category based on what people say here in that it's not popular like the HFN compared to the K&K.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-31-2020, 11:57 AM
Peter Z Peter Z is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 260
Default

Another Schatten fanboy here - after years of searching and spending money. I installed 4 of them meanwhile and while I wasn't that successful that my instals make my guitars sound completely naturall I'm very happy with the sound. And the installation is incredible easy as is the deinstallation. With the next string change the pickup can be located a little different till you are happy with the sound.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=