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  #1  
Old 05-17-2020, 04:27 PM
celestialpivot celestialpivot is offline
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Default Omni vs wide cardioid small condenser mic

I do a lot of acoustic guitar recording, I have a pair of Schoeps cmc6 mk4’s,
Looking for another flavor, I record a lot of folk country guitar,
I have a home studio with some good traps for acoustics treatment , the corners behind me and above on the ceiling. Wondering if an Omni mic would be ok or best to use if I had a big acoustic room with great sound, thought of trying a wide cardioid instead.
Was looking at the josephson 617 set Omni mic or DPA 4015A wide cardioid.
Appreciate any feedback.
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  #2  
Old 05-17-2020, 05:28 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Stay w/ Schoeps capsules

Aloha,

Congratulations on committing to two essential elements of acoustic guitar recording: excellent Room Treatment & the greatest mic's.

On the mic's, I'd recommend sticking with Schoeps modular capsules. They are the best, IMO. I've owned matched pairs of many of them & they simply excel. Since you have a great treated space, you actually can use any condenser mic's effectively including omni or wide cardioid in any pattern or mic placement.

https://schoeps.de/en/products/colette/capsules.html

I'd go with the Schoeps MK 2 Omni capsules over the wide cardioids because you can apply them to more situations. In my experience, I found the MK 21 & 22 wide cardioids did not offer much of an advantage over the MK 4 cardioid or even the MK 41 hypercardioid patterns. I returned both after auditioning them. The MK 2 is absolutely a GREAT omni capsule for piano & acoustic guitar.

So I'd stay within the Schoeps modular Collette System when it comes to making a polar pattern change for recording acoustic guitar. You cannot beat Schoeps, period. Why stray?

Between the Josephson & DPA - both fine mic's - I'd go with the DPA - less colored (and bright) IMO. I would rent them though before buying & do a shoot-out in your studio. I'm sure the Schoeps will make up your mind for sure. MK 2 Omni!

Another Schoeps combo I liked for Mid-Side recording was to combine an MK 41 hypercardioid with an MK 8 ribbon capsule in a low profile Audio Technica AT8415 shockmount. It produces an exceptionally clear & accurate direct sound.

Good Luck. Try every option.

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 05-17-2020 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 05-17-2020, 07:08 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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I love the sound of acoustic guitar recorded with omni mics in a good room. I think its the most natural sounding method but the room is critical.

That said, I think alohachris' suggestion about picking up the Schoeps omni capsules is the best advice for you. You already own one of the absolute best mics for recording acoustic guitar. Capsules aren't as sexy as new mics, but in this case, it's the right move. Stick with the Schoeps.
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Old 05-17-2020, 08:00 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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+1 on alohachris' Schoeps MK2 omni capsule recommendation. Get a Jecklin disk too.
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Old 05-31-2020, 03:37 PM
celestialpivot celestialpivot is offline
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Thanks for the feedback. I am close to pulling the trigger on the Omni
Schoeps but a little concerned about my room.
Even though it’s treated it is kind of small.
20 feet by 14 feet. I also have a attic fan running and air conditioning
Especially now in the summer. Will the omni be more of a problem?
Wondering if I am better off with the mk 22 to be safe?
Or a dpa 4015 to give a totally different sound to my guitar?
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Old 05-31-2020, 03:45 PM
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I agree the Schopes are outstanding. That said One thing to consider if your looking for a "different flavor" and are concerned about your room
You might consider something like a matched pair of AEA N22 or N8 Ribbon mics, both are phantom powered, (so good gain with most mic pres,) and they can be placed fairly close with little proximity issues. They are figure 8 so you can possibly use the null side to help eliminate point source extraneous noise
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Old 05-31-2020, 03:52 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Aloha Celestial Stick with the MK 2

Aloha Celestial,

Still curious, huh? Then Rent all of the mic's that interest you, have them shipped to your space, & do your own shoot out. It eliminates the guessing game. Only your opinion counts in gear selection. Let your ears decide on your home court.

Your room should be fine in terms of size. Record at night & turn off the A/C.

The Schoeps MK 2 Omni capsule is the best available of the mic's you are considering. The room's noise issues you discussed will have to be dealt with no matter what kind of mic you select. You're already into the Collette System. You will love the natural clarity of the MK 2. Lotsa space around the notes in a good room. Go to the Schoeps site for a listen/comparison of different mic's. I'd do that shoot-out at home.

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 05-31-2020 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 05-31-2020, 04:26 PM
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I don't have experience with the various Schoeps mics/capsules, but I've had a few different pair of omnis for home recording. The first pair were 3-Zigma with the free field omni capsules. That gave me some experience with omnis in my space (I'm using portable gobos, so it's maybe not as good as your treatment). I found out that I definitely like the omni sound. I sold the 3-Zigma pair and upgraded to a matched pair of Gefell M296S omnis. I didn't demo before I bought; renting or getting demo mics makes sense but I just went by recordings and feedback from folks with relevant experience. I did consider the Schoeps (which would have been pricier for the CMC6 plus the capsule) but I went with the Gefells because I felt they would be the mics to provide the most realism, which was my primary goal.

In any case, I'm really satisfied with my Gefell omnis.
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:16 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celestialpivot View Post
Wondering if an Omni mic would be ok or best to use if I had a big acoustic room with great sound, thought of trying a wide cardioid instead.
Every time I hear an acoustic guitar recorded in a good room with omni mics, I get a little jealous and long for the day in the not too distant future when I'll have such a room. If you have a room that can pull it off, go for it.
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

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Old 05-31-2020, 07:45 PM
celestialpivot celestialpivot is offline
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Other then treatment in the room what makes up a good room for Omni
And an acoustic guitar?
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Old 05-31-2020, 08:10 PM
celestialpivot celestialpivot is offline
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What is the best position for a stereo pair of mics in Omni for acoustic guitar?
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Old 05-31-2020, 08:43 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Great Rooms, Really Great Rooms - Who Knows?

Aloha Celestial,

John Williams enjoying one of the greatest rooms in the world here. Omni's really work here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPfZVflJdp0

You never know which will be a great room for recording. Some rooms are made to be great - but aren't. Some famous halls had millions put into acoustics only to fall prey to dead sound, despite all the experts.

Some spare bedrooms can sound fabulous for recording if properly treated. Most don't.

Some would say that the best sounding halls take time to create, that it's an on-going process in the life of a space.

Guitarists seem to love wooden rooms for recording. Some Italian churches are absolutely amazing for acoustics!

Some studio's have created legendary rooms & soundstage. Most don't. Some of the old CCC era theatre's have some of the best acoustics I've ever heard & also worked for recording.

Me? I've been in some of the best halls in the world & in hundreds of recording studio's. I still wouldn't know how to create a great sounding room for solo instrumental recording. Some claim to know how. But until it's finished, you never know if it's going to be a great room. Or, if like a great guitar, it improves with age. It's almost by accident.

All I know is that my recordings & techniques became good or satisfactory to my ears when I finally invested more time into understanding how acoustics work in a given space, & how to enhance & control them without creating a dead room through poor acoustic treatment.

When I fully committed to proper acoustic room treatment, with lotsa help in finding the right solutions, I finally enjoyed a level of sonic control & full frequency spectrum separation that I'd never experienced in my little acoustic recordings before over 50 years.

Some guitarists say that old, 100+ year old, one-room school houses with wooden floors & lots of wood & high ceilings make great recordings. I can't disagree having played in many, especially in New England.

In most modern houses, materials used in rooms actually work against achieving even decent sound & few provide space that make great natural acoustic recordings. Noise sources come from everywhere & modern materials like drywall, homesote, & plastic everything are no friend of an omni mic. Today's rooms are mostly fake.

So, we need to understand the issues, be able to identify them in a given space & then treat the room accordingly. That's all that's in our control. And still, the A/C or fridge will sabotage a great omni take. Ha - Modern life.

Most home recordists aren't interested in Room Treatment. They invest in more & more entry-level gear & wonder why their recordings are so muddy, mid-range & dead or distant sounding in their untreated spaces. But if you stay in the game, & recording gets you, that whole world opens up naturally, & we see the importance of room acoustics - a very unsexy topic. And then you can discern when a room is naturally great for using omni's or not. Educated ears!

So treat & control your space the best you can, Celestial & watch for great natural rooms along your path. You may want to ask permission to record in one sometime, as I have.

Good Luck, Celestial!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 05-31-2020 at 09:16 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-31-2020, 09:11 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Mic placement for Omni's

Aloha, Celestial,

First, experiment with what you know. Indeed, A-B spaced pair or X-Y are good places to experiment with an omni mic if the space is limited.

Omni mic's do best in spaces that are a little larger than a typical room in a house - to take advantage of the space & natural reverb & decay afforded by such a room. They are often used for classical orchestras or ensembles of acoustic instruments in a hall, set far back from the stage.

Usually omni's are placed farther away from the instrument than most guitar recordists usually use. The balance of that source-to-mic distance is critical in the quality of the recording.

If you're used to placing a spaced pair of cardioid's within 12" of the guitar, then think twice that distance with an omni. Use headphones to determine the sweet-spot distance in the space.

I suggest experimenting with all the placements you can to know what works in your space, Celestial.

DPA provides a blueprint here:

https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-u...ues-and-setups

Good Luck, Celestial.

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 05-31-2020 at 09:50 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-31-2020, 09:47 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Old Schoeps "Showroom" samples

Aloha Celestial,

Although no longer on the Schoeps site, these 2007 Showroom samples were useful to me in hearing capsule differences. The different effects of various Collete capsules are especially easier to hear on the piano sample (first take). I really love that Omni MK 2. So will you.

https://schoeps.de/fileadmin/showroom/showroom.htm

alohachris
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  #15  
Old 05-31-2020, 10:00 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Still curious, huh? Then Rent all of the mic's that interest you, have them shipped to your space, & do your own shoot out.
I've been going around in circles on my next mic purchase as well. I failed to find any place locally that rented much beyond SM58s and the odd SM7B. Where can I find this magical place that will let me rent whatever mics I am interested in?
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