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  #16  
Old 12-04-2012, 09:12 PM
Martin Keith Martin Keith is offline
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Honestly, without actually telling you what specific questions to ask - I'd start by just asking.

I've been on the receiving end of these questions through hundreds of custom orders. I've found that it's most important for the client and builder to establish, as early as possible, the tone and style of their communication.

Just trading emails or phone calls will tell you a lot about the style, personality, and attitude of a builder. Are they available? How closely do they adhere to their 'standard' recipe? Is that recipe the right choice for you? Above all else - ask yourself what it is you're looking for, and have the answer ready to describe to the builder. Then, ask them, however you need to, if and how they can make that imaginary instrument.

As the builder, I usually think of myself as the one who should be asking the questions. If I am to meet the needs of the client, I have a lot of things to ask them about what will and won't work for them.

Customers at this price point are pretty much never buying a first guitar. What that means to me is that there is something missing from the instruments they've owned or played thus far, that they are hoping to find in a custom instrument. So, it's up to the builder to make the client articulate what that missing piece might be. (It's not always easy!)

Best of luck!
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:33 AM
royd royd is offline
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having never been through this experience, I'm just talking out my behind...

I don't know your budget, but I would wonder whether a percentage of it might be used for a trip to Healdsburg or Woodstock or even NAMM (to connect with the luthiers group that often has a hotel room with a ton of guitars to show off). At the same time, I can imagine that you might look at your budget and decide that 10-20% might go better to the guitar than to travel. Still...

or perhaps when you have narrowed down your choices, you might find owners of most or all of the builders' guitars in a specific metropolitan area and make a contact with them and then a trip there to play their guitars?

If you can't hear and play a guitar up close and personal, at least you have the opportunity to connect with current owners via phone & e-mail and can listen to recordings and watch videos. Of course, the downside is that no video or audio recording is going to capture the experience of the instrument. Microphones and placement do make a difference in what parts of the guitar's sound you hear and no recording can tell you how a guitar feels or responds.

Loreto sounds like an interesting place to live even if there aren't lots of high end guitars around
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  #18  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:46 AM
Kevin A Kevin A is offline
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  #19  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billder99 View Post
All good advice guys, especially "Try Before You Buy". My situation is very difficult in that I live far down in Mexico. I just don't know how I can practically try instruments by any custom builder. There is an advantage to this: If I have to buy without trying, it opens up the entire world of luthiers to consideration.
Hi billder...
It also more than doubles your chances of ordering an instrument which sounds and plays great, but doesn't fit you personally well at all.

In your case, I wonder if it would be safer to buy from a SantaCruz, Collings, Huss&Dalton or other small factory where the results are predictable (within reason) and reputation great.

Then even if it's a total miss, you have better odds reselling sooner with less 'loss'.

Better yet (perhaps) just watch the Classifieds of this forum and find one someone though they'd love which wasn't a good fit for them, and you can benefit from their misses.

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  #20  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:53 PM
Pat Foster Pat Foster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftyprs View Post
Chuck, you hit the nail on the head with this statement. The luthier's experience and ability to successfully produce an instrument that has both the tonal characteristics and playability features that the customer has hopefully expressed accurately, are the two most important factors in the customer's ultimate satisfaction. There is no substitute for experience with most things in life, and building great acoustic guitars is certainly no exception to this rule.
I don't post often here, but this caught my eye.

Agree to a degree, but as with everything else there can be exceptions. I've seen mediocre guitars from experienced builders (30+ years of building) and really good guitars from newer builders. In addition to tone and playability, guitars need to be structurally sound, which may not be apparent until several years have passed.

Pat
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  #21  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billder99 View Post
All good advice guys, especially "Try Before You Buy". My situation is very difficult in that I live far down in Mexico. I just don't know how I can practically try instruments by any custom builder. There is an advantage to this: If I have to buy without trying, it opens up the entire world of luthiers to consideration.

It is vexing and that is why I am asking here on AGF, but maybe I am asking the wrong question. Perhaps (as suggested above) I should list my essential requirements and ask for a recommendation.
Another option might be to buy from a shop that sells handbuilts and has a trial period. I know Luthiers Collection does this (I'm not sure of Dream Guitars, Guitar Gallery, etc). Your risk is then limited to shipment charges.

I also think you may get better recommendations if you 'list your essential requirements'.
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  #22  
Old 12-05-2012, 03:05 PM
Kent Chasson Kent Chasson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Another option might be to buy from a shop that sells handbuilts and has a trial period. I know Luthiers Collection does this (I'm not sure of Dream Guitars, Guitar Gallery, etc). Your risk is then limited to shipment charges.

I also think you may get better recommendations if you 'list your essential requirements'.
Most custom builders that I'm aware of have trial periods too. As Martin said, with experience, we get pretty good at talking through the process and figuring out ahead of time if we think we can build something to fit a particular client's needs.
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  #23  
Old 12-05-2012, 04:43 PM
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My feeling is that every builder has a certain type of sound that is more or less present in everything they build. It's what makes their builds unique, I suppose. So I think it is misleading, even if you have a 1,000,000 word tonal vocabulary and write a 200 page description of what you are looking for, to expect that any experienced luthier will be able to achieve the sound you are looking for.

In my experience, I would expect the builder to be able to start with their characteristic tone and tweak it here or there by adjusting woods, tuning, and selecting the right body for the job. I would posit that you will never get a flavor of that characteristic sound without playing one of these guitars firsthand, and so anything you order sight unseen will be something of a surprise (pleasant or otherwise). I would be wary of luthiers who claim to be able to produce any kind of tone, as I think it's important that a luthier has an established "tonal identity" that guides their build philosophy.

I will also say from the experience of Healdsburg that, although there are a lot of great builders out there, only a small handful really get me excited. So buying sight unseen is a gamble, in my opinion, regardless of how many pertinent questions you may ask. It's a gamble I've actually taken, so I can't exactly advise against it, but you have to be prepared to be open about the results.

Outside of those caveats, I would look for patient builders. You are going to have a long relationship with this person while you design the guitar and over the course of its construction. Someone that has the patience to answer the many, many questions you will undoubtedly have will produce a better guitar and make for a more enjoyable experience. Lastly, look for builders that are flexible. Some builders are fairly rigid in the options they offer or the deviations they will make from their standard designs, either because they don't like to get too involved in a single build or because they are not comfortable taking the risks associated with doing something different. In the case of the former, if you aren't looking for a lot of customization this can be ok (but then again one of the really fun parts of commission a custom build is having it built EXACTLY to your specifications. If you can only choose from a menu, this can be somewhat limiting). In the case of the latter, I would be concerned that the hesitation to move outside of their comfort zone would be a sign of inexperience. In my opinion, a willingness to experiment and innovate is the hallmark of the best luthiers.

Luthier-built guitars, in my opinion, live on a bell curve. There are lots of beautifully constructed guitars that produce above-average tone, but not necessarily inspiring tone (again, this my opinion). The subset or luthiers who are actually gifted enough to producing an inspiring result is small.
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  #24  
Old 12-05-2012, 08:51 PM
donh donh is offline
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I define a guitar's sweet spot as that area of it's tone and dynamics where the instrument just plain sings.

I have played a guitar or two with no sweet spot whatsoever. And many with a pretty small one.

What I want most out of a custom guitar is a large lovely sweet spot. Ideally one that suits my style, but since whatever it is I do is a changeable thing that is patently unreasonable. A big sweet spot means I can find a happy place to play that instrument pretty darn easily. Fortunately I can find joy in a large range of tones, so it's really not all that difficult to get me all happy about an instrument - just don't build me a one-trick pony.

After that, I have a personal list of physical dimensions that are of interest to me. Some are tighter specs than others, and that's the way life goes.

When my daughter's prized factory guitar was stolen, we ended up calling Harv Leach and he arranged for one of his guitars to be sent to us (we paid the shipping, btw). We enjoyed it for a week, and came away with two conclusions: 1) we didn't want that particular guitar, and 2) we knew for sure Harv could build either of us a guitar we would treasure (he did, and we do!).

Keep your expectations reasonable and the world is a wonderful place.
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  #25  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:44 AM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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For every day over your promised due date, what amount will you deduct from the price?
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  #26  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:48 AM
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For every day over your promised due date, what amount will you deduct from the price?
That'll go over well.
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  #27  
Old 12-06-2012, 06:15 AM
billder99 billder99 is offline
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I sincerely appreciate the time you guys take in answering my questions. The farther I go down the rabbit hole, the deeper I find it is. Here are the key thoughts I have had in this process:

1. Why do I want a custom guitar... what is it's purpose?: I want a serious "strummer" that has a big acoustic sound. This guitar will be used only for plectrum-played music, and driven fairly hard. I want the sound that I have personally heard only on a few instruments (a Froggy & a Goodall). I can use words (piano-like, chiming, profoundly deep bass, blah, blah, blah), but better to provide an example... from listening to every sound clip in Guitar Gallery, the one that really caught my ear: http://guitargal.com/content/used-mcpherson-mg-40xp
2. How much can I spend?: My budget is limited to $4,000 which has to include a cutaway, case, delivery... all in. This may not sound like much to Olsen and Ryan guys, but times are tough and this relatively modest amount is a stretch for me. So, can I get the depth of sound of that McPherson (above) from any of the relatively new custom builders whose prices have not yet climbed beyond my ability to pay, or am I dreaming? I also like the idea of working with an upcoming builder, helping them establish a referral base and build a business.
3. One other thing: This may seem strange, but I have found that I really only "bond" with instruments that smell delicious. Every time I open the case, I want heavenly aroma. Not for everyone perhaps, but this is something that makes me happy and motivates me to play more.

There is obviously much more: I want a mid-size body (OM/GC/000/MJ), prefer 12-fret & short scale, 1-13/16" x 2-5/16" C-profile neck, simple trim and aesthetics... I am more flexible in these areas, the notes above are my primary motivation and limitation.

At my price point, Larry may be right... perhaps I will have to just keep watching AGF Classifieds for a used instrument that meets my criteria.
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  #28  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:10 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is online now
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donh wrote:
"What I want most out of a custom guitar is a large lovely sweet spot. Ideally one that suits my style, but since whatever it is I do is a changeable thing that is patently unreasonable. A big sweet spot means I can find a happy place to play that instrument pretty darn easily. Fortunately I can find joy in a large range of tones, so it's really not all that difficult to get me all happy about an instrument - just don't build me a one-trick pony."

That's something that does not occur to a lot of steel string players, but it's the sine qua non for classical guitarists. It's harder to build what I call a 'big center' into a steel string, but possible. Also, this presupposes that the player has the chops to use the wider tonal palette, and wants to. Some styles are built around a particular sound, while others, such as fingerstyle, tend to use the wider palette.

I have to agree with the folks who have mentioned that each builder tends to have 'their' sound. Some can vary it more than others, or build a guitar that gives a bigger center, which is better, just so the center encompasses the tone you're looking for, and you can get it. I really prefer it if a potential customer can play one of mine first, even it it's not exactly what they want. It's awfully easy, when discussing tone, to use the same words in vastly different ways, and a builder can end up making something that precisely matches his idea of the desired toner, only to find that it's not what the customer had in mind. This is a drag all around. Many builders do have a generous return policy for just this reason. From the makers standpoint, an unhappy customer is just bad advertising, so it's often better simply to take the thing back, and find somebody who will like it.
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  #29  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:13 AM
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Have you been in touch with Joanathan Razzo?
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  #30  
Old 12-07-2012, 09:25 AM
dberkowitz dberkowitz is offline
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There's a lot of ground here, but how one decides on a builder should be sorted through a long time before you even talk about a potential project.

What is their reputation, their training, years in business? What are they known for? Are they a traditional builder or a modern one in aesthetic/tone? How does their profile dovetail with what I want to have built?

What am I looking for? I like builder X's guitar's visual aesthetic, but builder Y's tone? I want a modern guitar, but in a traditional body? These are the kinds of issues one needs to determine before having that discussion with the builder. I say I want a parlor, but all my guitars are sitka/Indian dreadnoughts -- what does this say about my likely satisfaction with that parlor guitar? What void am I trying to fill with this custom order? What do I hope this guitar will do that other instruments in my quiver do not? I want a guitar built with X material which I find very sexy but that wood doesn't do what I want out of the instrument. These are all common questions that need to get resolved, preferably before engaging the builder.

I think one of the most telling thing a builder can say is when something is out of their comfort zone and their willingness to acknowledge that there is a benefit to letting go of one's ego and saying that someone else might be a better choice because they do that more often.

The more experienced builder will likely get their tone out of whatever is thrown at them, while less experienced builders might not have the internalized database of how something outside their comfort zone might need to be addressed.
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