Alternative neck joints

[Ernesto]

Hello my friends,

I'm just curious. Why aren't there more builders that offer alternative neck joints?
If I understand it right, there are several ways not only to avoid the 14th fret hump, but also to eliminate the need for a neck reset. For example, if the neck is not glued to top directly, such as in case of a cantilevered neck, its angle is not influenced by the distorsion of the body. Moreover, some of these alternative construction methods also seem to improve the intonation of the upper frets considerably, as the whole fingerboard becomes a unit, and stays that way.
Some interesting builders with alternative neck joints I discovered are
Jeff Bamburg
http://www.bamburgguitars.com/single...s-the-Big-Deal
Thomas Rein
http://reinguitars.com/the-rjn-rein-adjustable-neck
Jakob Poljakoff
https://www.poljakoffgitarren.de/eng...a-closer-look/

So why aren't there more, in spite of the obvious advantages of these constructions? Does a classic dovetail or bolt on sound better? Is it too difficult to do? The conservative market?

Thanks!

[rogthefrog]

There are quite a few options, eg Rick Turner, Ken Parker, Steve Klein, in addition to the ones you listed. But in a market where nothing sells if it doesn't look like a Martin, the incentives are not stacked in favor of innovation.

That said I saw an example of a bolt on neck with adjustable angle from the 1920s, so it isn't all new.

[Alan Carruth]

I'd say it's mostly market conservatism, which is the main impediment to all sorts of innovation. You can't blame people, in a way. A good guitar is not cheap, and nobody wants to be the beta tester for some new thing that might not work. Also, of course, there's all of the hype that has been expended convincing you that the existing methods and materials are 'the best'. After all, the best guitars ever made have used 'X' So have the worst, of course, but nobody ever thinks of that.

As far as I can see, Taylor's NT neck joint, and the clones of that, such as Gore's 'bolt-on, bolt-off', are hard to beat. It's not so new a concept: Stauffer, CFM #1's teacher, used something fairly similar, and it was not uncommon in the 19th century.

[Truckjohn]

Very good point Al...

A big consideration with "neck joint problems" is that it's hardly ever the neck joint itself which causes the problem - it's the guitar folding itself into the soundhole...

Now granted - I have seen my fair share of sloppy work causing a neck joint to go loose and simply fixing the loose neck joint remedied the situation.. But the vast majority of "neck reset" problems I have seen were from the body deforming...

And since it's not actually a problem with "The Neck Joint" - why would redesigning the neck joint fix it?

As Al says - the NT neck joint is fantastic in this regard - as you can quicky realign the neck geometry back to wherever the body is now and off you go...

Originally Posted by Ernesto

If I understand it right, there are several ways not only to avoid the 14th fret hump, but also to eliminate the need for a neck reset. For example, if the neck is not glued to top directly, such as in case of a cantilevered neck, its angle is not influenced by the distorsion of the body.

That's not correct. If the body distorts, the relationship of the fret plane and bridge changes, which is why the action goes up and a neck reset is required. That may or may not be easier with a cantilever setup depending on how the neck is attached.

In a traditional build the fretboard extension is glued to the top and becomes a key part of the structural connection between the neck, body, and upper bout cross brace. A cantilevered neck eliminates that and makes the entire structure weaker and more prone to breakage in some circumstances. That doesn't mean its a bad system, but it's not necessarily better in every way just because it solves some problems.

[Larry Pattis]

Regarding the desirability of alternate neck-attachments...and specifically in having an adjustable-neck, I agree with the OP 100%. There should be more out there.

I am playing on a guitar from Tom Rein, and I could not be more pleased with this particular feature...not to mention the fact that it's simply an outstanding guitar...as good as anything I have owned, playability-wise, tonally, sustain, clarity, responsiveness, etc.

I can tell you that over time I have dialed-in the action of the guitar perfectly. No relying on a tech to make a new saddle, hoping that the intonation is correct...and *mostly* hoping that any new (or properly shimmed or sanded) saddle performs properly as made, and at it's fixed-height.

An adjustable neck gives you all the time in the world (over hours, days, weeks...etc.) to make micro-adjustments...and if the top of your guitar changes even a tiny-bit with seasonal/humidity changes, it takes about 30 seconds to dial-in the string height again. No un-stringing, no sanding, no shimming.

Frankly, the set-up process with an adjustable-neck makes the notion of owning any other kind of guitar feel like a huuuge step backwards.

[stormin1155]

I don't have the experience to speak to whether alternative neck joints reduce or eliminate the neck joint hump, but I will confirm what others have already stated, that the need for a neck reset is almost always a result of body distortion, not a failure of the joint itself.

As a guitar tech, I much prefer bolt-on necks. Doing a neck reset with a traditional dovetail joint is a very intrusive and often violent operation where there is an increased risk of collateral damage.

[sabatini]

It is sometimes hard to remember, given the vast number of very expensive guitars both owned and lusted after here, but most guitar buyers just want a reasonably nice guitar that sounds good and plays well, at a price we can afford. Current production methods provide that.

Someone like Larry Pattis, a very skilled and discerning player, will notice and want to correct anomalies that I am oblivious to. I am glad he has a guitar that lets him make those tweaks.

An innovative guitar building technique, packaged in a $7,000-10,000 guitar, solves a problem I don't have and can't afford to solve. So far, I have never needed a neck reset on a guitar. If I do, I will pay they cost and move on.

I certainly encourage guitar innovation, but I am old enough now that those innovations won't become mainstream and affordable in time to help me. I just bought a new guitar. By the time it needs a neck reset it will be my son's problem.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

I don't have the experience to speak to whether alternative neck joints reduce or eliminate the neck joint hump, but I will confirm what others have already stated, that the need for a neck reset is almost always a result of body distortion, not a failure of the joint itself.

As a guitar tech, I much prefer bolt-on necks. Doing a neck reset with a traditional dovetail joint is a very intrusive and often violent operation where there is an increased risk of collateral damage.

Messy too.

[ancient tones]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Regarding the desirability of alternate neck-attachments...and specifically in having an adjustable-neck, I agree with the OP 100%. There should be more out there.

I am playing on a guitar from Tom Rein, and I could not be more pleased with this particular feature...not to mention the fact that it's simply an outstanding guitar...as good as anything I have owned, playability-wise, tonally, sustain, clarity, responsiveness, etc.

I can tell you that over time I have dialed-in the action of the guitar perfectly. No relying on a tech to make a new saddle, hoping that the intonation is correct...and *mostly* hoping that any new (or properly shimmed or sanded) saddle performs properly as made, and at it's fixed-height.

An adjustable neck gives you all the time in the world (over hours, days, weeks...etc.) to make micro-adjustments...and if the top of your guitar changes even a tiny-bit with seasonal/humidity changes, it takes about 30 seconds to dial-in the string height again. No un-stringing, no sanding, no shimming.

Frankly, the set-up process with an adjustable-neck makes the notion of owning any other kind of guitar feel like a huuuge step backwards.

Interesting. Thank you. I read the Rein website. I would like to try one of his guitars out of curiosity. It's a cool idea!

But it's solving a problem that I don't have. Maybe if I had a $7000 guitar to play around with my mind would be changed? My Martins are not broke so no need to fix them. I do see the appeal for new technologies. I would like to try the new Taylor V braces for example.

[Wolfram]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Regarding the desirability of alternate neck-attachments...and specifically in having an adjustable-neck, I agree with the OP 100%. There should be more out there.

I am playing on a guitar from Tom Rein, and I could not be more pleased with this particular feature...not to mention the fact that it's simply an outstanding guitar...as good as anything I have owned, playability-wise, tonally, sustain, clarity, responsiveness, etc.

I can tell you that over time I have dialed-in the action of the guitar perfectly. No relying on a tech to make a new saddle, hoping that the intonation is correct...and *mostly* hoping that any new (or properly shimmed or sanded) saddle performs properly as made, and at it's fixed-height.

An adjustable neck gives you all the time in the world (over hours, days, weeks...etc.) to make micro-adjustments...and if the top of your guitar changes even a tiny-bit with seasonal/humidity changes, it takes about 30 seconds to dial-in the string height again. No un-stringing, no sanding, no shimming.

Frankly, the set-up process with an adjustable-neck makes the notion of owning any other kind of guitar feel like a huuuge step backwards.

+1 to this!

The real eye-opener for me with a fully adjustable neck (mine's a Baranik) was the ability to set the action absolutely perfect for my tastes. With a conventional saddle, sand it that bit too low and encounter too much fret buzz, and you have to start again or start shimming; with the adjustable neck, you can take it 'til it's a bit too low and just back off an eighth of a turn or so. It takes seconds, rather than minutes, or hours, and you can adjust without removing or even slackening the strings. Or, indeed, you can experiment with different setups to your heart's content.

It would be wonderful to see this adjustable neck technology trickle down to production guitars, but I believe there is a lot of 'traditionalism' amongst acoustic guitar players, many of whom won't accept anything other than a dovetail joint. Then, there are the many thousands of acoustic guitar techs who would be left deeply unhappy with virtually all of their guitar setup business gone...

Cheers,
David

[Ernesto]

Thanks you for the insights, luthiers and players! As usual, I am learning a lot here. The advantages of an adjustable neck with regard to set up issues are very obvious. Larry, I had not thought it was that easy, Tom Rein is definitely a candidat for a future build (besides, I have heard, not only from you, that his guitars sound amazing).

What about playability and sound? In a previous thread on a Bamburg FSC model, I read that the cantilevered neck (the Rein approach, if I get it right, is somehow similar as in both cases the whole fingerboard works as a unit) improves intonation and playability on the territory past the Upper Transverse Brace. Anyone experienced that?

[rogthefrog]

There's another benefit to non-glued necks. One of my guitars was in the shop for a reset. Take neck off, readjust, tweak relief, no big deal. But the truss rod broke in the neck. No big deal either: take the neck off again, ship to maker, ship back, pop back on. Much less cost and risk than shipping a huge irreplaceable one of a kind guitar in a giant Calton case.

[Trevor Gore]

Originally Posted by Ernesto

...I'm just curious. Why aren't there more builders that offer alternative neck joints?...

...So why aren't there more, in spite of the obvious advantages of these constructions? Does a classic dovetail or bolt on sound better? Is it too difficult to do? The conservative market?...

Mostly the very heavily invested-in marketing myth that a dovetail joint is the only way to achieve structural and acoustical integrity, which has been proved to be wrong on countless occasions. Whilst Taylor have legitimised bolted joints in the mainstream market, alternative joints have been around for decades, if not centuries.

Here's my bolt-on bolt-off neck joint that Alan mentioned above:

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

As far as I can see, Taylor's NT neck joint, and the clones of that, such as Gore's 'bolt-on, bolt-off', are hard to beat. It's not so new a concept: Stauffer, CFM #1's teacher, used something fairly similar, and it was not uncommon in the 19th century.

Hardly a Taylor clone though, it differs in countless ways, from the method of construction, its method of location and (just a detail) the truss rod being accessible (and removable) from the body end. I use it for both classical and steel string guitars.

Stauffer's adjustable neck joint dates from the late 19th century, with numerous re-interpretations. Here's mine:

A classical...




...and a steel string:



They are adjustable without tools in seconds, via a spin wheel accessible through the sound hole. You can just see the spin wheel in the pic of the cutaway classical.

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

...Frankly, the set-up process with an adjustable-neck makes the notion of owning any other kind of guitar feel like a huuuge step backwards.

Couldn't agree more. Until you've used one, you don't know what you're missing.

More about neck joints by hitting the link: Bolt on neck joint

[JBam]

Just a note that my new (more affordable semi production) Rocky Mountain Guitars also feature this neck joint.

Base model starts at $3900

www.rockymtnguitar.com