Taylor guitars - saddle sanding...OK or Not?

[JackB1]

Here is a direct quote from a Taylor tech

“If the action is high on a Taylor guitar, it’s never necessary to shave down the saddle. Taylor‘s are extremely well set up from the factory in the saddle was already at the right height. In fact, when I was meeting with Bob Taylor a couple years ago he pointed to the room full of guitars we are in said you could take the saddle out of any two guitars and swap them without changing the playability of the guitars at all. That’s because all action adjustments on Taylor’s are done by changing the neck shims. This has to be done by an authorized repair tech, but it’s a much more effective way of setting up the guitar long-term, and you don’t run into the problem of giving away tone Like you do when you’re filing down the saddle.”

[Rodger Knox]

The crux of the biskit is string height above the top just in front of the bridge(a design parameter), which is related to neck angle and action at the twelfth fret. The correct neck angle gives the "desired" action with the "design" height of the strings above the top.

Obviously, the desired action is a variable that can be dialed in by adjusting the neck angle or the height of the saddle. Adjusting the height of the saddle changes the design height of the strings. Some guitars are very sensitive to this change, some not so much. Wood is also a variable, and that design height is based on an average piece of wood, so the optimum design height varies depending on the individual topwood and bracing.

So, from a practical point of view, if you like the tone of your Taylor, action should be adjusted with the neck angle, as that is less likely to change the tone. Sanding the saddle or putting in a taller saddle may change the tone, which some will like, and some will not. That's probably a worthwhile experiment, since the neck angle is so easily adjustable, and Mr. Taylor's "sweet spot" will vary from one instrument to the next.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

With respect, I understand the video to discuss the pros/cons of relative neck angles, action and bridge/saddle heights, etc. in the context of deciding which angle best suits which type of playing/player to get a particular sound/volume, but the video does not address the OP's question (whether the shim-adjusted angle, alone, is sufficient to set action height, or whether some saddle-lowering might be needed to achieve the desired action. I raise this not to be contrary, but in an effort to keep responses aligned with the OP's original question for the benefit of him, and later readers with the same question.

You're right about the video, but my point in linking to it was that it contains a discussion about neck angle, (whether it's precisely fixed, or has some leeway?) which, though discussed in a different context, is highly relevant to the OP's question, and that's the point I was making in my post. The OP says "If my neck angle is correct ...". My deduction from the video is that since there is some debate even within Taylor Guitars about what 'correct' means (within small limits), there must also be some small uncertainty within the Taylor philosophy about sanding saddles and/or shimming necks, once we get into the ballpark in terms of setup.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by N+1

You're right about the video, but my point in linking to it was that it contains a discussion about neck angle, (whether it's precisely fixed, or has some leeway?) which, though discussed in a different context, is highly relevant to the OP's question, and that's the point I was making in my post. The OP says "If my neck angle is correct ...". My deduction from the video is that since there is some debate even within Taylor Guitars about what 'correct' means (within small limits), there must also be some small uncertainty within the Taylor philosophy about sanding saddles and/or shimming necks, once we get into the ballpark in terms of setup.

Ahh, understood. Thanks for clarifying.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by N+1

You're right about the video, but my point in linking to it was that it contains a discussion about neck angle, (whether it's precisely fixed, or has some leeway?) which, though discussed in a different context, is highly relevant to the OP's question, and that's the point I was making in my post. The OP says "If my neck angle is correct ...". My deduction from the video is that since there is some debate even within Taylor Guitars about what 'correct' means (within small limits), there must also be some small uncertainty within the Taylor philosophy about sanding saddles and/or shimming necks, once we get into the ballpark in terms of setup.

When I say "neck angle correct"...I am saying that when you put a straight edge along the neck, it meets the bridge right at, or very close to, the top of the bridge.

Bottom line is....there is still a lot of confusion about this topic. This is what I gather so far:

-Taylor neck angle and action is set at the factory and should be should be good at that point
-If the neck angle is off, you will need to bring it to a Taylor tech to adjust it by removing the bolt on neck and adding/removing shims.
-If the action needs adjusting and the neck angle is correct (assuming the guitar is humidified properly) the saddle would have to be sanded or a new saddle put in and sanded to spec.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by JackB1

When I say "neck angle correct"...I am saying that when you put a straight edge along the neck, it meets the bridge right at, or very close to, the top of the bridge.

Is that with strings on and tuned to pitch? If so, which frets does the straightedge contact? The only way a straightedge gives you any good information is if the neck is adjusted to be dead flat so that the straightedge touches every fret, at least up to the body joint. Above the body, a small amount of fallaway is usually desirable. This measurement can be made with or without string tension. If there's no string tension when the measurement is made, the height of the straightedge above the bridge needs to be a little higher to compensate for the top pulling up under string tension.

Using a straightedge to check the neck angle is necessary when building a guitar, because the neck must be set before strings can be installed. Once the strings are installed, there are better ways to evaluate the neck angle, see my previous post in this thread.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by JackB1

When I say "neck angle correct"...I am saying that when you put a straight edge along the neck, it meets the bridge right at, or very close to, the top of the bridge.

That alignment of the flat neck towards the top of the bridge is what we tend to think of as "correct", and (I presume) Bob Taylor's "sweet spot" would be close to that, but maybe not exactly that. By contrast, Andy Powers suggests that you can jiggle a bit, above and below that. In other words, even the guys who design and make the guitars are a bit fuzzy about what is "correct". And if they're a bit fuzzy about the neck angle, then presumably there's something a bit fuzzy about saddle height, too.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Is that with strings on and tuned to pitch? If so, which frets does the straightedge contact? The only way a straightedge gives you any good information is if the neck is adjusted to be dead flat so that the straightedge touches every fret, at least up to the body joint. Above the body, a small amount of fallaway is usually desirable. This measurement can be made with or without string tension. If there's no string tension when the measurement is made, the height of the straightedge above the bridge needs to be a little higher to compensate for the top pulling up under string tension.

Using a straightedge to check the neck angle is necessary when building a guitar, because the neck must be set before strings can be installed. Once the strings are installed, there are better ways to evaluate the neck angle, see my previous post in this thread.

Yes. I measured with the strings on and tuned to pitch. Also with a slight amount of neck relief. But I have a long straight edge, which starts at the top of the neck and reaches all the way to the bridge, so the small amount of neck relief doesn't really impact where the edge of the straight edge hits on the bridge. I can adjust the neck to be dead straight and measure again if you think it will provide different results.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by N+1

That alignment of the flat neck towards the top of the bridge is what we tend to think of as "correct", and (I presume) Bob Taylor's "sweet spot" would be close to that, but maybe not exactly that. By contrast, Andy Powers suggests that you can jiggle a bit, above and below that. In other words, even the guys who design and make the guitars are a bit fuzzy about what is "correct". And if they're a bit fuzzy about the neck angle, then presumably there's something a bit fuzzy about saddle height, too.

What that tells me is that as long as its close to the top of the bridge, the neck angle should be fine. I would say anything within 1/16" above or below should be Ok.

[fazool]

Action means the height of a string above the frets.

Look at this three-part diagram.

In the top image you see a string above a fretboard. The height can be adjust on the left end (nut) and on the right end (saddle).

But the neck angle (second image) also needs to be adjusted (so you can clear higher frets while playing lower frets it can't be perfectly parallel it has to have a slight angle of clearance for the frets on the body). This makes the action vary at different frets which is why we usually measure at the 12th.

Then the fretboard relief is adjusted to also provide clearance on the frets off the body, when fretting lower frets. This adds curvature to the non parallel fingerboard so it's very complicated geometrically.

So, you have four adjustments:

1) nut
2) saddle
3) angle
4) relief

All define the action at different parts of the neck. All have to be taken into consideration. Yes, you can adjust any one to get a specific effect (such as more clearance on fret 1 might need a higher nut slot, or buzzing strings on fret 7 might need more mid-neck relief, etc.

To get an optimal setup you need to dial in all of these things at the same time.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by JackB1

What that tells me is that as long as its close to the top of the bridge, the neck angle should be fine. I would say anything within 1/16" above or below should be Ok.

I think the point here is that we're not talking about large adjustments. We're assuming that the set up is pretty close, and that we're talking about fine tuning. The neck angle is close to optimum; saddle height is close to optimum, relief is close to optimum. We're operating within Andy Powers's wiggle room for all three of these things, all interacting to subtle degrees, and (I suspect) that puts us in a realm of fine adjustment where the measurements are less effective as a guide than the feel of the thing.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by JackB1

I would say anything within 1/16" above or below should be Ok.

I disagree. You don't want it below. You want it to just meet the edge, or be a smidge above, able to slide on top, or a little better (to keep a nice saddle exposure with low action). If yours is below, I'd recommend a shim change before doing the saddle work.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I disagree. You don't want it below. You want it to just meet the edge, or be a smidge above, able to slide on top, or a little better (to keep a nice saddle exposure with low action). If yours is below, I'd recommend a shim change before doing the saddle work.

OK so even a smidge below is bad? I'll check it again with the relief adjusted so the neck is perfectly straight.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by JackB1

OK so even a smidge below is bad? I'll check it again with the relief adjusted so the neck is perfectly straight.

That's my position, though I'd love to hear from others. I'm going by a whole of luthier input who seem to say that, and it's good enough for me. It's so easy (and cheap) to get it "right" on a Taylor that it makes sense to get that out of the way.

[JackB1]

Anyone know where I can find a .050 hex Allen wrench? Home Depot didn’t have any that small