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Old 06-21-2013, 06:33 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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Default Engelmann/Honduran Mahogany Dread

I have posted this build in a kit thread elsewhere, but it's really not from a kit. Most everything is going to be scratch except the neck and fret board. I want to post it here because I've watched the builds that the pros do in the Custom Shop section and hope some will chime in with questions I'm going to raise about the goals I have with this.

The back and sides are Honduran Mahogany as the title says, and I got them from RC Tonewoods & Sons. They were nice enough to thickness them for me to get them close to final dimensions. The top is from LMI and not yet thicknessed.

Having decided that I'm going to build several more guitars, I got a side bender from Blues Creek Guitars. And a friend on the kit forum donated a tower type binding setup.

The neck will probably come from LMI as one of their partially shaped necks. I don't yet feel comfortable making the scarf joint on mahogany. Over the summer I will put some pine to the test and try to gain expertise. But, I want a wide heel like I see Somogyi and Ray Kraut do, and the partially carved neck from them hits the spot. I'm very impressed with Kraut's rosette ideas and will try to emulate him to some degree. As a matter of fact, that's what's holding me up even starting with the top. I have materials coming and can't brace it until after I figure out what the rosette is going to be. Fortunately I have a leftover top from someone's Martin kit - the rosette material streaked across the top and made it worthless to me. So I can practice punching holes in it until I make a decision.

Here's one of the sides as it sits on the plan sheet from StewMac. It looks like it's out of whack with the plan because I moved it to the left and forgot to put it back. It fits!



And here's the obligatory shot of one of the sides in the bender. I don't think I've seen a build yet without that shot. Oh, let me tell you. Bending sides in one of these is a snap. I'll leave that word in . I had the easiest time. Previously, I had bought 4 pieces of sides from LMI to practice bending with. I used water on the first 3, two with paper around them, one without. All 3 came out pretty rippled and wavy. After consultation with people smarter than I (Tony Costa, are you listening?), I did the fourth one dry with no paper, and lower temp. It came out with a bit of waviness, but nothing that sanding won't cure. And the 2 Honduran Hog sides were pretty good.



Here are the 2 sides in the form. This form was from KMG. I like it because I can take the cauls out and glue on the top and the back using rubber bands. I've done rubber bands for all 3 of my other guitars and really like using them.





Here's a couple of pictures of the back set - not yet joined or profiled.






And finally the top. I'm having a time getting a picture that shows how white this top is. there's a ton of silking as well. Since the top is .015" thick, it needs to be thinned down pretty good. I'm going to try my hand at using a plane for this after I practice on some old pine. I'll start out sanding a little to see if the reverse side of this top looks better. It's giving a hint that it might be pretty good itself.



I've learned a number of things on the first 3 builds. When I look at each of them, I kick myself because I didn't take the time or take care of my materials. I think that anyone who is new at this like me will benefit from my mistakes. One thing I decided early was that my ego is parked at the door. If I make a mistake, I'm not afraid to admit it and tell others. If you learn from mine, it gives you ample opportunity to make your own, and I will learn from you. That's fair.

1. Do not rush. It's easy to get excited about a part being ready and you want to see it done, but giving in to it can be dangerous.
2. Don't say "oh, I'll fix that when it's time to finish". Fix it now. You either won't remember or it will be too late.
3. Prepare the body for a successful finish. Even on the 3rd one, I thought I'd done a good prep job. But closer inspection showed me how wrong I could be.
4. Treat the top, back, sides, neck, fretboard, etc., with care. I'd do something on the neck, then set it over on the other side of the table and then knock it into something else. I'd put the top on top of a chest, and knock it sideways into somethine else. Turn over the body, get grit or something into the top and there'd be a gash down on the lower bout. Don't even get me talking about the finishing process. Somogyi keeps a paper cover on his tops except when he absolutely has to take the cover off, or when it's all done.

My new year's resolution in June is to avoid all those bad practices and make this thing something to be happy with and proud of.

My first build was a StewMac kit and came out very over-braced. I'm just now sneaking in when I change strings and planing some of the braces. It's so tight that there's not too much bass, and it's not very loud at all. My 2nd was for my daughter. It came from a kit from Kenneth Michaels Guitars. Ken sells kits with molds (much like the one you see above) and with some other tools that a novice builder doesn't have. He also is very helpful in explaining things to you if you don't understand. I believe his site (just google his name) has a section on how to build from start to finish, but I'm not sure. He will support you from first to last. Now, my 3rd guitar partly came from a Martin kit. A married couple, both teachers, had started to build it but school came along and they didn't have time so I got it from them for a steal. It went to my son just last Sunday. I really hated letting him have it. I got the bracing pretty well shaved correctly. The bass was nice and clear, the middles and highs are there nicely too. It's louder, and sustains well when I want it.
So now I have to do as well or better on this one.
Thanks for looking,
Bob
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Old 06-21-2013, 06:45 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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This is the 2nd post I put in the other forum.

In the past couple of days, I've glued in the neck and tail block.



Put in all the kerfing. I used reverse kerfing just because I like the way it looks. Also, it might be a bit stronger than regular kerfing.



And this afternoon I joined the two back pieces after "candling" them. Both my wife and I looked at the two pieces from opposite sides, and then I flipped them around and we did it again. The joint should be good. The back is sitting on a granite or marble piece (I don't know what it is actually, just that it's flat) that I got for its flatness. I then used a Clamp'n Tool Guide that I bought many years ago for the right edge. I set a short piece of wood where the two edges of the back touch and rested them on that. I then positioned another straight piece of wood at the left edge and clamped it in place. After gluing both edges, I let them try to mate, and slid the piece out of the middle so that the two back pieces went down flush with the granite. I then clamped a level over the seam. Wax paper was used to keep the glue from getting anywhere but the back.



I'm going to let the back sit like that all night and start working on it tomorrow to get ready to brace it up.

I am lucky that Stephen Kinnaird, who is a member here, and Ryan Middlebrook, another member who works in Steve's shop, both live here in the same town I do. They have helped me from day one. Whenever I have a question or problem with something I've done or want to do, they have been rock solid in supporting me. The 2nd guitar I built had fallen and the side cracked. I was a basket case. Steve looked at it, took some colored pens and made those cracks disappear. The man's a magician. I hope they're reading this because they're in for some work in the next couple of months.

Now for my first question to any and all. I want to make my back as responsive as possible. How far can I take the braces down to make that happen and not have it fall apart? I did fudge and ordered a pre-carved brace set from LMI for this, but wish I had just gone with a block of wood and done my own. The 2 upper back braces are about the same size as my X braces, and the 2 for the lower part are 1/4" high and 3/4" wide. I've been used to big braces, both tall and fat for the back. With the way they are right now, do they seem conducive to making a pretty resonant back?

Someone mentioned to me that I might be concerned with a back that responds much in that it could cancel out some of the top's resonance if their "tap tone" for want of a better term somehow clashed. What would be a good way to avoid that? I don't have any good way of measuring the note or notes that I get from tapping.

Thanks again for looking, and thanks in advance for any advice or constructive comments.
Bob
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:07 PM
Tom West Tom West is offline
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Bob: Nice looking top. On the other hand Engelmann is "generally" softer and less stiff then other spruces. If you have access to Steve, I would suggest you let him handle the top and give you his assessment before doing any thing in the way of thinning the wood. It looks like you are using the Stew-Mac dread plan, which is a good one, but the top thickness and scalloping is more suited to a Red Spruce top. What I mean is that the Engelmann top most likely should be thicker and less scalloping on the braces then shown on the plan. The Engelmann also requires that you take more care when working as it can ding much easier then other spruces. You may be aware of all this but if not a talk with Steve may be in order. Good luck with the project.
Tom
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Last edited by Tom West; 06-22-2013 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 06-22-2013, 12:05 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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Thanks Tom for the reminders on the top. I had Engelmann for my 2nd guitar and that's part of the reason I listed #4 in my first post. I didn't take care of that top as I should have. It turned out ok, but I learned the lesson. This one will be put away when not being worked on. Any surface that it touches will be cleaned ahead of time. And once it's on the box, it will be covered until it's time to finish.

Another AGF member is going to Steve's next Fri, and I'm going to tag along. I'll take the top and hopefully get Steve or Ryan to thickness sand it the rest of the way and show and tell me what sensations they're feeling when the top is just about right. Glad you mentioned doing that. I can learn in one hour what it would take me several tops to learn.

I released the back from being joined this morning, and found that the seam between the two is a bit too noticeable. I guess with light wood, that will be a problem unless you really do perfectly book match it. Although I find the wood to be very nice, it gives me one more thing to look for when buying a back and side set. I'm still very happy about it, but I'm going to put a strip down the middle of the back using some Sycamore I'm going to buy for bindings. Steve's always taught me to take anything less than good and turn it into a feature. So this will be the firs of many "features" on this build.

The back has been profiled more or less to shape and the pic below is of the spruce covering the center joint on the inside.



I'm going to set up the braces for the back, but will wait until I have that Sycamore and get the strip put in. Using a 15' radius on the back, and it would be impossible to put it on otherwise.
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Old 06-22-2013, 01:38 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naccoachbob View Post
The back has been profiled more or less to shape and the pic below is of the spruce covering the center joint on the inside.
I'm assuming that the darker colored areas on the inside of the back are water from removing excess glue. Just a suggestion: if you wait 5 to 10 minutes after gluing and clamping, the glue squeeeze-out will "rubberize" and can be removed with a chisel, or wooden stick shaped like a chisel blade, as a largely single rubbery strip, making a very clean gluing seam, without much fuss and without the need for water or messy rags/paper towels. The amount of glue required always seems to be less than intuitive, providing an even, small bead of squeeze out. More squeeze-out than that is a waste of glue and a mess. Experience teaches how much glue is necessary to apply.
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Old 06-22-2013, 02:16 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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Thanks, Charles. I had slipped and moved that part to the left (in the picture) and had got glue on the back. But, I am guilty of always trying to mop up the glue when it comes out. I'll start trying to refrain, and to do like you were showing. I guess not introducing water any more than is necessary is always a good idea on acoustics.
Oh, yeh, it was definitely water. Scared me when I read it.
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Old 06-22-2013, 02:59 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naccoachbob View Post
I had slipped and moved that part to the left (in the picture) and had got glue on the back.
One method to prevent slippage is to run a single strip of masking tape on one side, or both, of the strip prior to gluing it. It is also another way of dealing with the glue squeeze-out.

Certain types of clamps, and how they are applied, will tend to slide (or rotate) the piece being glued. The cam clamps you are using can do that. How you squeeze them closed prior to pulling the cam can have a big effect on whether or not the glued piece slides or not.
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Old 06-25-2013, 05:30 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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Charles, thanks again. When I go putting the braces on, I'll have to remember this specifically. They are already somewhat shaped at least the tops are rounded off, so that doesn't help with clamping.
Oh, I just got an email from Steve, and will be going out to their shop Friday pm with another forum member. Steve said I could bring the top with me, and I hope to learn as much as I can about tapping. Of course, I haven't cut the top shape out yet. It's a rectangle. Already I hear parts of it that ring nicely, but I also hear spots where it sounds like cardboard. I don't have calipers of any depth, so I can't get more than an inch or so into the wood, but even that little bears out what I'm hearing. I've never used a plane before, so I only took it as shallow as I thought prudent so that I don't mess up a very nice piece of Spruce.
Sat and Sun I intend to put in a rosette. Still undecided with what it will actually be.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:30 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naccoachbob View Post
I don't have calipers of any depth, so I can't get more than an inch or so into the wood...
ONe can easily make an inexpensive dial calliper with an inexpensive gauge and a home-made "C" shaped frame of plywood or hardwood.

Learn lots with Steve. Enjoy. Take your plane with you and have him look at it and teach you about fettling and sharpening. Both are essential if one is to use a handplane effectively.
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:56 AM
stuw stuw is offline
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Looking good Bob.

I am also going to have to remember Charles tape tip.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:32 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
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I am also going to have to remember Charles tape tip.

There are many uses for masking tape.

For example, in the early, pre-factory days, Larrivee used a single strip of masking tape and two cinder blocks to clamp the center seams of tops and backs. On a flat board, place the two jointed, mating, glue-applied halves of the top or back to be glued. On one half, put one strip of tape along the length of the seam so that half of the width of the tape overlaps that half of the back. Burnish the tape with your finger so that it sticks to that half of the top or back. Put a heavy weight on that half of the top or back. While still mated, tilt the other half of the top or back to nearly 90 degrees by lifting from the non-mating edge. Burnish the tape with your finger so that it sticks to this (second) half of the top or back. Press the lifted half of the top or back down onto the flat board and place a heavy weight on this half. Doing so stretches the width of the tape, pulling the two halves of the top or back together.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:32 AM
Neil K Walk Neil K Walk is offline
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Looking good, Bob. That hog should really pop under finish. Are you using the Stewmac dread plans? I'm using those for my 2nd.
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:33 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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Thanks everyone.
Last Friday, I went to Steve Kinnaird's shop with another forumite who was passing thru. Got to see some of the good work Steve and Ryan do there. I took my top and back there to show them, and Ryan and I used the thickness sanding machine they have to get the top down to really close to final thickness. Then we got to play one of Steve's guitars. Man, that thing fit my lap so well, played so well, and looked so well - Well, it did!

Over the weekend, I braced the back and profiled the braces. Used Charles advice and put tape beside the spot where the brace was to lay. At first I used some old blue tape we have here. I think it's painter's tape. It didn't come up very well (it stuck to the board and glue too much), so I switched to some of the tape I use for binding. That worked really well. Very little cleanup.



After seeing all the squeeze out from that brace, I went with less on the next one.

Here's the back after profiling the braces.



The top had been joined before seeing Charles' post, so didn't use tape.



And here it is after thicknessing and cutting the waste from the board.



I'm going to try Sycamore for the binding. I got 4 pieces from RC Tonewoods & Sons, and it looks really good. Very brittle though. Of course, it's dimensioned down to perfect size for me and will be handled very carefully. I also got a couple of pieces of Sycamore for using on the rear of the headstock and for the tail wedge
.
Ebony will be the front of the headstock and also used as binding for an ebony fretboard. There'll be a thin strip of white between the fb and binding. I'm hoping with gold EVO frets that it will really look nice.

After work tomorrow and thru the 4th of July weekend, I'll be designing the rosette. I still don't have a firm picture in my mind of what it will be.

Question(s) for the day: If I want to glue purfling on the binding before I bend it, what glue should I use? If CA, can anyone help with how you put it on? I'm thinking huge mess there. If it's like Titebond, will it stay together while it's getting very hot in the bender?

Thanks for looking.
Bob

Last edited by naccoachbob; 07-02-2013 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:08 PM
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Your back and sides will look amazing after they are finished. I will enjoy watching this grow up to be a guitar. Don't let me become a slacker in the watch and see department.
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:20 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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Thanks, Mary. Between matrimonial duties and maternal duties, when do you get time to rest and peruse all the other posts here? I've watched my wife raise our two kids, and I marvel at a woman's ability to juggle everything that comes by. Truly is a good thing that men don't have babies!!

I'm going to have to pay a consulting fee to TonyinNYC if he ever gets wise to how much he's helping with this. His approach to bending the side purfling was to tape it to the binding pieces that I was to bend. DUH! Sheesh, I shoulda thunk of that in the first place. It worked perfectly.



I was only able to bend 2 of the purfling pieces because that's all I had. There's another batch heading to East Texas. Unfortunately they're telling me it will be next Tue before they arrive. I really hate waiting. Of course it's that desire to get moving that gets me in trouble lutherie-wise, so I'll take the hint and step back.

I'd forgotten to install these mahogany pieces along the sides to stiffen them and help against cracking. Better late than never.



I was showing a co-worker the Sycamore pieces that I got, and telling her my plans for not only the reverse side of the headstock and the tail wedge, but the rosette I had planned. Initially the rosette would only have the small circles showing, but while we were looking at it, I changed my mind and may have them transition from small to large. My plan is to have 2 pieces of sycamore, one on either side of the sound hole ( 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. They will both be about 2-3 inches long, and arc along with some purfling. Below the sound hole at 6 o'clock, will be an ebony piece - with or without a bloodwood piece intersecting it.

Here's the two pieces butted together. In the bottom right you can see the arc that I've drawn and that it takes in some of the larger circles/ovals/oblong things, and then transitions to the smaller ones. Above and to the left of that one, you see the other where it only has small circles in it. So my choices are: 1. transition from large to small, 2. All small, or 3. one small and one large.



Next is the part of the 2 pieces that will make up the reverse side of my headstock. Again, my initial thought was to use the small circles, but I'm leaning a bit toward the headstock showing large circles, etc. on the edge and smaller ones on the inside. I hope you can see the lines I've drawn. In the very middle, of course, is the part with only small circles. On the outer edges I've drawn lines that have large circles on the outer 1" and 3/4" of the smaller ones. That gives the inside part 1 1/2" worth of small circles. The front side of the headstock will be ebony. I intend to curve the sides and upper end of the headstock, but final shape hasn't been decided. I'll lose some of the outer side of the sycamore by doing this.



Anyone have thoughts on this?

Thanks for looking,
Bob

Last edited by naccoachbob; 07-05-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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