The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 08-09-2020, 09:13 AM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,300
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Yes, but the reflections off the wall behind you will be picked up by the mic before they are absorbed. If you have another large panel I’d add it behind you.
Unless they don't get to the mic at all, because YOU and your guitar and sitting right in front of the mic and blocking them! Not entirely, of course, because sound waves go around things, but reflections from behind may be less of an issue than you think. And something like a bookshelf can actually work as a decent diffuser: sending a bit of sound around the room in different directions can be a good thing. It keeps some ambience, but lessens the chance that any particular frequency will get overemphasized, and attenuate a bit by making that sound travel a bit further before it hits the mic.

Panels behind the mic are important because they prevent delayed & off-axis sounds (where the frequency response of the mic is different) from reaching the mic. But yeah, you'll have to experiment to find the best location for other panels based on your particular set-up.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-09-2020, 10:52 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Itchen Stoke, UK
Posts: 2,136
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Yes, but the reflections off the wall behind you will be picked up by the mic before they are absorbed. If you have another large panel I’d add it behind you.


Just did some testing in both orientations, and surprisingly (to me at least) I found that facing out into the room with the bookshelf in front of me (with 2 60x60cm panels on it) sounded better than the way I have been recording.

Small differences but slightly more space and air - maybe a bit more room in a good way.
__________________
Burguet AC-007 (2003 - Cedar/Rosewood)
Webber OM (2009 - Sitka/Sapele)


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8A...2TVEhWes2Djrig
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-09-2020, 12:11 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,828
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
Thanks - I just had a go at that, very interesting..

Here’s a screen shot and also the sound file - better?



Attachment 42274
Just a short diversion from topic:

What is it about those areas that got brought down?

I tried it on one of my recordings and also got a more pleasant tone.
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-09-2020, 12:46 PM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Itchen Stoke, UK
Posts: 2,136
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
Just a short diversion from topic:

What is it about those areas that got brought down?

I tried it on one of my recordings and also got a more pleasant tone.


I watched a video explaining it, but essentially I raised the level and slowly scanned listening for sounds I didn’t like - then dropped them!
__________________
Burguet AC-007 (2003 - Cedar/Rosewood)
Webber OM (2009 - Sitka/Sapele)


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8A...2TVEhWes2Djrig
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-09-2020, 02:19 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,828
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
I watched a video explaining it, but essentially I raised the level and slowly scanned listening for sounds I didn’t like - then dropped them!
Any chance you still have the link to the video? Thanks.
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-09-2020, 03:02 PM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Itchen Stoke, UK
Posts: 2,136
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
Any chance you still have the link to the video? Thanks.


Yes, of course - here you go;


https://youtu.be/W1CiTRXMYJc
__________________
Burguet AC-007 (2003 - Cedar/Rosewood)
Webber OM (2009 - Sitka/Sapele)


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8A...2TVEhWes2Djrig
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-09-2020, 03:06 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,828
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
Yes, of course - here you go;


https://youtu.be/W1CiTRXMYJc
Thanks!
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-11-2020, 01:03 PM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 3,712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
Kev

Can I ask you a question regarding treatment placement please.

I currently play facing in to a three sided square - so treatment in front of me and to both sides but nothing behind me. I did this to calm any reflections coming straight from the guitar.

I have read somewhere that I should reverse this and play with the treatment behind me, as this is the live side of the mics - and dispense with the treatment in front of me as this is the dead side of the mics.

Would you agree?

Essentially I have three large panels (1.4m x 1.4m) and then multiple smaller 0.6x0.6 that can be placed anywhere.

Thanks

Peter.
We usually think of directional microphones as all or nothing, front picks up sound, back doesn't. But that's not the case at all. The sides are usually on 3-6 dB down from the front, back is 6-9 dB down, and these measurements are at 1 khz only. Different frequencies will be even less attenuated, some are more.

It's also the case that off-axis sound is less likely to be smooth and sweet.

So my experience and theory have led me to place attenuating panels behind the mics. The idea is that the sound starts at the guitar, passes the mics, passes through the panels, reflects and returns through the panels before hitting the mics again, giving double attenuation of the off-axis sound.

Of course experimentation tells the story in your particular situation, but my tests in a small untreated room definitely indicated the behind the mic position was the most effective in reducing room effects. http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/

Fran
__________________
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key in California - www.kaleponi.com
My YouTube clips
The Homebrewed Music Blog
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-11-2020, 02:04 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
Yes, of course - here you go;

https://youtu.be/W1CiTRXMYJc
A visual of the technique I described in post #15
IMO and somewhat contrary to what he says in the video (when you are starting out) I would recommend boosting the narrow sweep bands higher, up around 12 db . Yes (he is correct ) more things will sound funny. But the really bad ones will still stand out and be much more identifiable (until you get used hearing the problem freq's with a lesser boost) and just resist the temptation to cut everything that sounds funny. Start with the really boxy boomy ones in the low end and the ones that really chime in the upper freq's
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-11-2020, 02:18 PM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Itchen Stoke, UK
Posts: 2,136
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
A visual of the technique I described in post #15

IMO and somewhat contrary to what he says in the video (when you are starting out) I would recommend boosting the narrow sweep bands higher, up around 12 db . Yes (he is correct ) more things will sound funny. But the really bad ones will still stand out and be much more identifiable (until you get used hearing the problem freq's with a lesser boost) and just resist the temptation to cut everything that sounds funny. Start with the really boxy boomy ones in the low end and the ones that really chime in the upper freq's


This makes sense to me - I have struggled to identify clear issues at +6db.
__________________
Burguet AC-007 (2003 - Cedar/Rosewood)
Webber OM (2009 - Sitka/Sapele)


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8A...2TVEhWes2Djrig
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 08-11-2020, 02:22 PM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Itchen Stoke, UK
Posts: 2,136
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran Guidry View Post
We usually think of directional microphones as all or nothing, front picks up sound, back doesn't. But that's not the case at all. The sides are usually on 3-6 dB down from the front, back is 6-9 dB down, and these measurements are at 1 khz only. Different frequencies will be even less attenuated, some are more.



It's also the case that off-axis sound is less likely to be smooth and sweet.



So my experience and theory have led me to place attenuating panels behind the mics. The idea is that the sound starts at the guitar, passes the mics, passes through the panels, reflects and returns through the panels before hitting the mics again, giving double attenuation of the off-axis sound.



Of course experimentation tells the story in your particular situation, but my tests in a small untreated room definitely indicated the behind the mic position was the most effective in reducing room effects. http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/



Fran


Thanks Fran for the input.

I spent a good few hours experimenting with this, and ultimately I thought that the recorded sound I got when the large panel was behind my playing position was more to my liking than when behind the mics with me playing into it.

This of course may be that the more room sound is helping with the recording - or that I am misinterpreting what I am hearing as better when it is actually just different...

All very confusing.
__________________
Burguet AC-007 (2003 - Cedar/Rosewood)
Webber OM (2009 - Sitka/Sapele)


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8A...2TVEhWes2Djrig
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 08-11-2020, 02:36 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
This makes sense to me - I have struggled to identify clear issues at +6db.
Actually I still boost up to at least 12db because I think it is quicker and I now have a little better idea of what the most problematic freq's sound like
Here is a screen shot of a typical guitar track subtractive EQ from one of my sessions




Here is an example of subtractive on a stereo recording of a guitar but on two mono tracks (one Right one Left) using different mics. A Schoeps SDC Left and and A Brauner LDC Right

Left Schoeps



Right Brauner

__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 08-12-2020, 10:41 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Itchen Stoke, UK
Posts: 2,136
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Actually I still boost up to at least 12db because I think it is quicker and I now have a little better idea of what the most problematic freq's sound like

Here is a screen shot of a typical guitar track subtractive EQ from one of my sessions









Here is an example of subtractive on a stereo recording of a guitar but on two mono tracks (one Right one Left) using different mics. A Schoeps SDC Left and and A Brauner LDC Right



Left Schoeps







Right Brauner





Thanks Kev - that’s very helpful.

I played around with a +12db boost today and certainly found it easier to find the less pleasant sounds.
__________________
Burguet AC-007 (2003 - Cedar/Rosewood)
Webber OM (2009 - Sitka/Sapele)


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8A...2TVEhWes2Djrig
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 08-12-2020, 06:50 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,878
Default

FWIW, I virtually never end up using any EQ, other than some sharp low end rolloff - usually below 40Hz or so. If the guitar doesn't sound good, I move the mics, try a different guitar, different strings, different mics, file my nails - whatever. I have used this technique of sweeping a boost to find bad frequencies to cut, but more often when working on others recordings or maybe old recordings, where I don't have the option of redoing the track with different mic placement.

One thing I do use, tho, is dynamic EQ, which is basically an EQ triggered by a multiband compressor. it can solve issues like an occasionally boomy bass note, or a harsh overtone, without affecting the overall EQ of the guitar, except for the moment it's needed. For example, here's a snapshot of Ozone's Dynamic EQ with some reduction on a bass note and a higher frequency, in action:

Screen Shot 2020-08-12 at 5.43.36 PM.jpg

its sort of two different situations, depends on whether your guitar tone is problematic over all - in which I case, I prefer to address it a different way - or if you have a problem note here and there.

Last edited by Doug Young; 08-12-2020 at 07:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 08-13-2020, 12:03 AM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,878
Default

I forgot to mention my main point - with these sorts of tools (Fabfilter's another example), the spectrum shows you where the problem notes are so you don't have to search as much for them - tho again, this is for things like boomy notes, not for affecting overall EQ.

BTW, Wrighty, I finally had a chance to listen to your track. Nice playing, and the recording sounds very good to me as well.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=