How do I write a song like Radiohead?

[MattChen]

This post is about theory.

I've been playing guitar for a long time. I'm good. But when I was younger my teacher didn't focus on theory much and we mainly jammed. Now my understanding of theory is all over the place. I know some things that are advanced, and there are really basic things that I'm not familiar with. Lately I've gone back to the beginning to patch up the holes in my understanding of theory.

I like to write music but I mainly experiment with chords and find patterns as a matter of trial and error. The only theory I know of is that each key has something like 7 common chords and sometimes I reference that. Over the years I've also developed a basic instinct of what chords might sound good following another, but usually it still feels like a shot in the dark.

Now if we look at a song like "fake plastic trees" from Radiohead. The chord progression I use goes: A, Asus4, Dmaj9/F#, A6, Dsus2, A, Dsus2.
It follows the melody so perfectly. Gets me thinking that there's no way this was "random".

So my question is:

WHAT AREA OF THEORY HELPS A SONGWRITER DISCOVER UNIQUE CHORD PATTERNS THAT COMPLEMENT.

For example, does it have to do with an understanding of scales? Or is it easier to create a melody first and form chords from there? etc.

Thanks for any insight.

My input on this is a belief only .

It goes like this ....a person with a inert ability experiments ...just like you say with each key having common chords as a basis .While experimenting i disagree that it is preplanned ,i think music is mysterious and within that mystery there are triggers that help humans slip in and out of altered states .Rather like dna strands ....sometimes they match and sometimes they dont .When they do and you remember them on returning from lala land ...you build a song around that sequence .some are very good at it and some are not .I think recognition of those sequences are key .Like you have said Radio head are great at it .....cold play also and many many more .

It always for me comes back to a thing Neil Young said ...No way can you own music ...just be gratefull when it shows up .

Like i say a belief only as i have smelt the scent of those moments and they alone are enough for my passion with music .

Edit i can hear in my head a lot of people saying NO it is practice that makes perfection .....but i still say practice my make perfection but it doesnt make originality .That comes from being different .Which i think is the mysterious spake you cannot own .

[jaymarsch]

Hi MattChen,

I also feel like a newbie when it comes to chord theory and applying it to my playing and songwriting, but I will share some small things that I have been exploring. I have written songs where the chords match the melody and more recently I have been working to pick chord voicings that harmonize with the melody. I find the latter to be more challenging but the overall result to be more pleasing to my ear and musically interesting.

I tend to write the melody first and the chords come after - but there are all different ways to approach it. I am fortunate in that I have a guitar teacher who is great at chord theory and while not a songwriter, a fabulous arranger of music for guitar. Arranging really is an art in itself.

I find that playing scales of the key your in on different positions on the neck very useful and also looking at chord progressions of songs that you like and study the pattern such as the example you posted: A, Asus4, Dmaj9/F#, A6, Dsus2, A, Dsus2. That quickly looks like a I - IV pattern (if your in the key of A) with either adding or dropping notes for variety and or following the melody.

I don't know if this is helpful, but I find it fun to explore all the endless possibilities. Thanks for listening to my musings on the subject.

Best,
Jayne

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by MattChen

WHAT AREA OF THEORY HELPS A SONGWRITER DISCOVER UNIQUE CHORD PATTERNS THAT COMPLEMENT.

For example, does it have to do with an understanding of scales? Or is it easier to create a melody first and form chords from there? etc.

You can't really isolate it like that. The area of theory that you're looking for is, well, theory.

Yeah it's scales, scale steps (tonic, dominant, sub-dominant, etc.), chord voicings (understanding the role of suspended, augmented, diminished, etc.), chord substitutions, chord progressions, circle of fifths, circle of fourths, etc.

It's a whole lot of contextual knowledge that all plays together. Listening to and playing music of different styles helps build a musical vocabulary that you can draw from, eventually you can hear/predict/intuit how things will go together.

It's also experience, Thom York didn't sit down and write OK Computer on his first try. And even after years of experience I'm sure it didn't just fall out in one go, there's a lot of revision and experimentation involved.

There is, of course, no magic formula.

[ccarey]

The best songs I've written, generally the melody comes first. I'm in the car or in the shower or something and it just hits me. Then I sit down with the guitar or piano and hash it out. It's never really the other way around, personally I can't try to sit down and write a song, all that comes out is usually rubbish. I am self-taught when it comes to guitar, but I have a good handle on general theory. I'm constantly discovering new voicings with my fingers. I feel that it really just needs to be natural. Don't try for it, just let the mood strike you. I know it sounds abstract, but this kind of thing really can't be forced. Let it happen. Have you ever tried writing on piano/keys? Thom Yorke tends to switch back and forth quite a bit.

[MattChen]

Thanks for the replies guys, very good insights.

I definitely agree that songwriting has a lot to do with the unexplainable, the intuition, the feeling...
Just curious how a better understanding of theory will help.

Warfrat73, that's a good way of putting it. I figured that might be it, just needed someone with more experience to confirm.

ccarey. I don't know how to play the piano at all. I've always been interested in writing a melody first, to me, that's the most important thing. I don't know how others write melodies though and I'd be interested in it. For me, I usually just make it up with my voice as I go, then if I like it I record it... and so it helps to have a layer of chords underneath. I'm curious whether people write melodies with the actual instrument, like the piano, or a guitar solo, without lyrics or anything. How do you come up with melodies? And what else do you know about Thom Yorke's approach?

Thanks guys

[fatt-dad]

Does this help?

Any theory you can get from Pat Martino is bound to provoke. I just listen to him play and don't understand anything.

Good luck, I admire your journey.

f-d

p.s., here's an interesting site too!

Someone famous who i cant remember said songwriting is easy if you just tell the truth ........but then brought attention to the quote of George Orwell .

Quote
"Telling the truth in an oppressed time is a revolutionary act "

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by fatt-dad

Does this help?

Any theory you can get from Pat Martino is bound to provoke. I just listen to him play and don't understand anything.

Good luck, I admire your journey.

f-d

p.s., here's an interesting site too!

What did that have to do with Pat Martino?

A lot of words for saying that he likes to think modally. Which is fine for some music, but would kind of leave you without a way to understand why chords progress as they do, or where the movement to different tonalities comes from, or what notes to use where and when in playing harmonically oriented music.

[Doug Young]

I don't think diving into theory will help you write a song like that. It's really only 2 chords and they're just playing with variations of the basic shapes. More something you come up with by messing around than studying a book. The chords aren't the most important part to most tunes - you need a feel, a hook, good lyrics if it's a song, a good melody if it's an instrumental, and it doesn't hurt with a song either. Guitar riffs are a form of a hook, and as much as I believe in knowing your theory, you can bet that the creators of great guitar riffs over the years, Keith Richards, Jimmie Page, on and on... didn't sit down with a theory book and figure them out mathematically.

You might find the new course TrueFire just posted up your alley. The previews look a little stiff, but the content would seem to be exactly what you're looking for:

http://truefire.com/techniques-guita...ing-on-guitar/

[mr. beaumont]

It's a two chord progression. Melody implies harmony. Not rocket science.

If you want to "learn" how to do it, I suggest studying some major scale harmony.

[shawlie]

I'm not a very good guitar player, but I do like to write songs (true, most are about as good as my guitar playing...).

Theory seems to help a bit - it gives you options you might not think about if you are just doing what you normally do. If you already know the basic chords in a key, use them and find some melody. Take some of the chords, add a finger for a non-chord note - which are the ones than make you want to go to another note, it seems to make things move along. They are kind of the ones that give a song melody, at least it seems to me.

Maybe change the chord, keeping the same note going for a bit before changing. Or land on another non-chord note for the new chord. Look around for something other than a root to do with the bass.

I always thinks it helps to be able to sing, too. I can not sing good, so it is one thing that does not help with writing. But if you can just strum a bit and are able to sing something cool over a C chord, I think you wil be more than halfway there.

[fatt-dad]

it had nothing to do with Pat Martino. It was just some stuff about chords.

Next paragraph. The OP may want to go on YouTube and see Pat Martino's videos about chord stuff.

And, again I wish the OP well on his journey. Wasn't trying to make life difficult. You may enjoy going to YouTube, however. . .

f-d

[MattChen]

Cool, good suggestions, thanks.

mr. beaumont, what do you mean by "melody implies harmony"? Can you elaborate a bit. Thanks

[Gazzamundo]

I might be doing him a disservice, but Thom Yorke doesn't strike me as guitarist who's spent much time learning theory, I'd reckon he's self-taught (like myself).

I think theory kinda gets in the way (maybe I only think that coz I was too lazy to learn any?) - I just play chords that sound nice together, then get some idea of a tune to go over the top of that, and come up with some words to fit the melody.

Why don't you just get the tab to a load more Radiohead tunes, learn to play them, look at what Tom's doing, and try writing your own Radiohead style tune using typical Radiohead chords? Try writing your own tune to some borrowed chord patterns.

It might also help if you could come up with some miserable downbeat concept for a lyric - failure, loss, depression, that type of thing - and don't play too fast either. And try to avoid too many straight major chords - for instance, if you get the urge for an A major, try using an Asus2 instead.

course, I preferred them in the early days, when the just wrote pop songs...