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  #16  
Old 07-09-2020, 05:57 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Fun Topic, Victor

Aloha Victor,

Fun topic with fun responses to a fun basic question.

Requires a totally subjective, non-definitive answer to the basic question. And as everyone has written - It all gets down to what your voice & ears tell you.

For vocal mic's, I always would audition many, including in higher-priced ranges when I couldn't afford them, for perspective. Then I let my voice decide on what's best for it, no matter tube or FET.

When I WAS able to afford or trade for great, high-end mic's & preamps, I finally began to look at mic's in terms of mic/pre combo's not just the mic itself. That change in perspective made a huge difference in my own subjectivity of mic choices. It opened up worlds for me.

There was always an old taboo that you should not combine tube mic's with tube pre's for signal behavioral reasons. I think that's only with entry-level or mediocre tube mic's & pre's. Because as you know Victor, my final ultimate vocal mic/preamp choice was a high-end Microtech-Gefell UM900 variable pattern (5), condenser TUBE vocal studio LDC mic combined with a high-end Pendulum MDP-1a TUBE preamp.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...h-gefell-um900

https://www.soundpure.com/p/pendulum...-di-preamp/763

My voice LOVED that combo the best out of all the hundreds I've auditioned. That's my subjectivity talking here and my voice did the actual mic selection. Talk about warmth in my mediocre-at-best voice? I sounded like Perry Como or a little like Nat King Cole with that tube-tube combo. Not like ol' "gigger-voiced" alohachris, Ha! With His High-End Tube-Tube combo? It became SMOOTH, alohachris in the studio.

I don't audition anything anymore. It's on you now to put your voice in front of the new generation of 47 clones, 251 clones, Kev's ADK, new concept LDC's, Warm clone this, 151 clone, U67 clone, Telefunken & Flea clone that, Tube this, etc., etc. for studio recording. Or because I'm originally from NYC, "Hey! Clone This, M-F!" I say that because of all the guys who would call to entice me to buy their ****-roached 47 Tube mic with this phrase, "And, they even used actual parts from a 1947 vintage U-47's in restoring this unused gem." Sheesh! Let your voice decide, Victor.

BTW, because you mentioned it, I'm also a fan of the Mojave 200 & 300 series of Vocal Studio Tube LDC Mic's. They are real studio swiss army knives that work well on many types of instruments & voices, even females, Ha! I preferred using the MA-200 for acoustic guitar strumming tracks. Great shimmering sound on 12-strings too. Not too expensive for the value they provide.

Now that you mention it, I do have an MA-200 cardioid Tube LDC here w/ it's nice shock mount, cable & power supply that I haven't used since 2012. In it's nice black flight case. It doesn't have the variable patterns of the 300 series. But it's in excellent condition & was rarely used (because of all my high-end vocal mic's). If you're interested, please PM me. It's just sitting here unused. I was the original owner. Has the original logo. Much more room with a barely used MA-200 (many hundreds off) than with the Schoeps. My voice really liked the MA-200. PM me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ6qVC-hRjg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwRc...cu-WJYLy&index

So that's all's I knows on this topic. And didn't even think to let go of my MA-200 until I was writing this.

Aloha Victor!

alohachris

PS: Sorry about the "Swiss Army Knife' reference. It's sacrilegious! Friends, you have no idea how amazing Victor's custom cutlery is. Check out his site! -alohachris-

Last edited by alohachris; 07-10-2020 at 11:42 PM.
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  #17  
Old 07-11-2020, 12:25 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha Victor,

Fun topic with fun responses to a fun basic question.

For vocal mic's, I always would audition many, including in higher-priced ranges when I couldn't afford them, for perspective. Then I let my voice decide on what's best for it, no matter tube or FET.

There was always an old taboo that you should not combine tube mic's with tube pre's for signal behavioral reasons. I think that's only with entry-level or mediocre tube mic's & pre's.

Let your voice decide, Victor.

Aloha Victor!
alohachris

PS: Sorry about the "Swiss Army Knife' reference. It's sacrilegious! Friends, you have no idea how amazing Victor's custom cutlery is. Check out his site! -alohachris-
Very, very sincerely, Thank you so much Chris for your most logical words of wisdom, you encouragement, displayed passions, and your ever so kind praise of my past profession. Believe me when I say, the knowledge and Encouragement I get from the forum is not only helpful, but uplifting.
I will most certainly do as you suggest and try out as many mics as I can. Luckily I live within a reasonable distance from Vintage King Los Angeles. I have never been but I believe they have a large Vocal Mic room for testing. I assume they are close for testing now, because of covid-19. And in truth, I am in no hurry as I still have Acoustic Treatments to build, a new interface coming to set up, and lots to learn in my DAW. Plus I have two AT4050's to use for Voice work tapes.
You really can't Test mics very well at NAMM. But the best vocal sound I heard was also a Tube Mic into a Tube Pre. Nothing short of Magical.
As far as the Swiss Army knives's? You will surprised to know that the very small Victorinox Swiss Army Classic is an absolute must have on any of my Backpacking trips. It is the only other knife that I will use besides my knives. The little blade is great for getting into little places that might need repair. The Tweezers are invaluable for those occasional thorns or wood splinters that get into your hands. And the metal fingernail file is a savior when I accidentally chip a nail. Allows me to sand the nail even so that I do not loose all of the nail. I surely don't want to get back home after a week in the backcountry and not be able to play guitar!
While I do not makes knives anymore...the great sanders I own come in so handy for all of the custom saddles, Nuts and bridge pin experimentation I do. Still lots of hand work, but there is no question the machines are a big help. I believe a properly made nut and saddle are big contributors to giving each guitar a more polished tone.
https://knife10.wixsite.com/victor-smith-knives
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  #18  
Old 07-11-2020, 01:51 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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This is one of my favorite threads I've read here in a while because I always consider the solid state mic through a tube pre, and vice versa, compared to a tube mic thorough a solid state pre and vice versa.

The other day I was recording a duet (drums and electric guitar or acoustic guitar), and I was mic'ing the drum kit in an Glyn Johns mic pattern. The two mics above the kit were Neumann TLM103s (solid state) into a Sebatron VMP1000e (tube) pre. But outside of the kick I had to make a decision. I was using a Lawson L47 which has swap-able base, either tube of solid state. I was using the Sebatron VMP4000e preamp for all of the drum tracks (it's 4 channels), so the tube pre choice was made. I tried both bases, and I usually love the tube base on the L47, but in this case I preferred the solid state capsule as it seemed tighter on the bass drum and easier to mix. Since I've owned this mic, this was the first time this has happened, I almost always go with the tube base.

This is the mic I'm talking about (the one on the right sitting on the tube power supply), you can see it's smaller base than the tube base on the L251 to the left...



At my house I record a lot of demos and my favorite vocal choice is a RODE Classic II tube mic through a Langevin SS pre. I've tried it with other preamps, both tube and SS, and this is my favorite combo.

Generally speaking, I think solid state preamps, if well designed, tend to be quieter noise wise than a tube pre, and really like the tube mic / SS preamp combo. But in reverse, I love running SS Neumann KM184s or RODE NTKs through my Drawmer 1960 or Universal Audio LA610 tube pres, which tend to deal with the brightness of these mics better.

Long story short, I don't think there is a hard and fast rule, you just have to see what mics line up well with what preamps!
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  #19  
Old 07-11-2020, 05:07 PM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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Nice. For recording drums the faster slew rate of the solid state capsule preamp might convey a more realistic transient.

Bob
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  #20  
Old 07-11-2020, 06:37 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
Nice. For recording drums the faster slew rate of the solid state capsule preamp might convey a more realistic transient.

Bob
That's what I think too Bob after A'B- ing back in forth. Maybe that's why the U47 FET is favored for bass drum!
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  #21  
Old 07-12-2020, 12:25 PM
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KevWind KevWind is offline
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OK as per my other post and the OP's reply....
Here are the clips of the two ADK mics and my Brauner Phantom V
Understanding that are are a number of variables involved.
#1 these are separate individual performances of me singing the same song
#2 the Brauner FET (BPV) was recorded in my previous attic home studio and the two ADK tube mic clips, were performed in the studio @ Wind Over The Earth

Again the Brauner FET is into my A Designs tube pre, unfortunately I don't recall off hand what pre was being used at WOTE (I may try and call Monday and see if Mark (the engineer) remembers

Also the files are of course being streamed vis SoundCloud (with its streaming compression) .
I tried to get the levels as close as possible by ear. There is no processing either in recording or mixing , the files are raw vocals only.

IMO all are definitely acceptable, and on many words the difference is pretty negligible, on a few words the differences are more noticeable.




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  #22  
Old 07-12-2020, 02:28 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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This is a great mic comparison. I had not heard 251 or Brauner Fet before. 67 style I am a little bit familiar with having heard it on many of my past favorite recording artists.
First let me say, that of course without hearing it in the mix & song...that of course makes a difference. And Reverb often tells a different story about what a mic really has to offer. Reverb sometimes reveals things about a mic.
My impressions:
*I loved the purity of the Brauner Fet. It was smooth like a valve but with a bit of an edge.
** Oddly I have had not experience before with 251's. so I did listen to a few youtube videos after you mentioned it.
I see why people talk about the 251, it has a bit more clarity-edge than other valve's but still with that silky smoothness.
*** 67's have always seemed a bit too distorted for my liking. They work wonderfully...possibly a bit too much taming for my liking. (now that might be a different story when I would hear all the brashness that might be revealed if not using a smooth valve like the 67. There is something to be said for Smoothness. Always a safe bet)
When I owned my 70's U87, that was my complaint..it was a bit too tame and not open enough for my liking. However, with that being said..it never let me down to get a nice smooth, usable sound.
The Brauner seems to have a bit of both worlds, some edge and openness with smoothness. Or is that just the addition of the tube pre? I will have to talk to Doug and see what Model Brauner he owns.
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  #23  
Old 07-12-2020, 03:12 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
The Brauner seems to have a bit of both worlds, some edge and openness with smoothness. Or is that just the addition of the tube pre? I will have to talk to Doug and see what Model Brauner he owns.
I have a pair of VM1s, tube mics. https://brauner-microphones.de/en/products/vm1/
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  #24  
Old 07-12-2020, 03:34 PM
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KevWind KevWind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
This is a great mic comparison. I had not heard 251 or Brauner Fet before. 67 style I am a little bit familiar with having heard it on many of my past favorite recording artists.
First let me say, that of course without hearing it in the mix & song...that of course makes a difference. And Reverb often tells a different story about what a mic really has to offer. Reverb sometimes reveals things about a mic.
My impressions:
*I loved the purity of the Brauner Fet. It was smooth like a valve but with a bit of an edge.
** Oddly I have had not experience before with 251's. so I did listen to a few youtube videos after you mentioned it.
I see why people talk about the 251, it has a bit more clarity-edge than other valve's but still with that silky smoothness.
*** 67's have always seemed a bit too distorted for my liking. They work wonderfully...possibly a bit too much taming for my liking. (now that might be a different story when I would hear all the brashness that might be revealed if not using a smooth valve like the 67. There is something to be said for Smoothness. Always a safe bet)
When I owned my 70's U87, that was my complaint..it was a bit too tame and not open enough for my liking. However, with that being said..it never let me down to get a nice smooth, usable sound.
The Brauner seems to have a bit of both worlds, some edge and openness with smoothness. Or is that just the addition of the tube pre? I will have to talk to Doug and see what Model Brauner he owns.
I believe Doug has a pair of Brauner tube mics perhaps VM1 (Ha I see Doug answered while I was being my typical remedial slow poster self )

I chose the Brauner Phantom V over The U87 ai (which I also like on my voice) but because I thought the BPV a bit more was open, detailed, and slightly better balanced throughout . I believe it has a flatter response curve in the upper mid's as well but it can get a sibilant in the upper highs .

I think yes, the 251 may well boast one of most detailed high ends of of the classic style tube mics, (also almost to the point of being a sibilant if you are not careful with your S's ) I guess the difference between "air" and siblance can be just a db or two, of spl

So here are a couple of real world examples (albeit very different from each other) Some covers I posted on YouTube, with some mixing (some EQ ,a bit of master bus Comp, and some Verb)

The "I Lived" cover (experimenting with split green screen and 2 camera angles for video). is a one shot take, guitar and vocal same time all the way through.
Note the Schoeps MK 4 ,close guitar camera angle (sitting just at the intersection of the Brauner boom and the MK 4 stand) .... It was shot in my previous attic studio/ mancave.



" Midnight Hour" cover is shot in my current actual bedroom studio (experimenting with split screen video and layering the vocal ) and first attempt at some electric lead (which I am trying to learn in late stage second childhood ). This is with a pair of AEA N 22 phantom powered ribbons on Guitar and 251 on vocals

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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

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Last edited by KevWind; 07-13-2020 at 06:43 AM.
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