Mixing solo fingerstyle guitar (part 2)

[DarkestDreaming]

Hi all,

In a previous thread i started, i asked for some advice and help on mixing solo fingerstyle guitar:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=239758

In it i was advised to try recording with mics instead of the KnK pickup alone. Since then i have picked up a matched pair of Rode NT55s (similar to the NT5 except with pad switch, lo-cut and additional omni capsule)

I did a test recording of a Billy Mclaughlin tune, "breaking of the shells", recorded with the KnK as well as one mic at the vanilla position. I was wondering if seasoned recordists in this forum can comment on:

Recording quality
Mixing (reverb, compression application etc.)
Obvious errors and bad practices
Some noise, chair squeaks and lip smacks were captured, which I removed with Izotope RX

Here is the said track:

http://soundcloud.com/iankafye-lam/b...rce=soundcloud


Also if you want to take a crack at it, i can send you the raw tracks. Doug was kind enough to do that for me before, and i will be honoured if he would help me out again

[rick-slo]

Sounds good though a little off to the side in my headphones. I can't comment on reverb, compression, etc, as I don't have the raw recording to compare it with.

[Doug Young]

The basic sound is nice, but you're way unbalanced, pulling far to the left. I'd start simple with this stuff - get a good, balanced stereo recording before even worrying about effects. Also Soundcloud really destroys the sound quality of any track, so it's really hard to say much based on a track posted there.

[Rick Shepherd]

It is heavy on the left. Often this can happen because of your mic positioning. You may be getting a much stronger signal in your left mic (probably positioned somewhere around the 14th fret). If this is the case, try moving the mic to the left and maybe out a bit further, pointing it towards the the 14th fret, or wherever it needs to be placed to balance it out with the signal from the other mic. Try to balance the signals from both mics through proper spacing, without adjusting the preamp input levels or pan adjustments. It is best to use your headphones for this.

Your right mic placement might need some repositioning to capture more of a balanced tone and stronger signal. What works well for me is to position the right mic over my right shoulder above the upper bout of the guitar. To get the right position, move the mic up or down, and forward and back to capture the most balanced, strongest signal possible.

Good microphone positioning is critical and can save you a lot of time and headaches trying to get the right mix later. It can also minimize the need to add EQ, compression, etc. later.

Are you using any room treatment, acoustic panels, etc.? In your recording, I can hear the effect of your room.

Can you give us some info on your recording space and the microphone spacing and distance from the source, as well as the rest of your recording gear?

In my signature below are two recordings I did using a spaced matched pair as described above. Each mic is panned hard left/right.

Nice playing!

[paulchevin]

I agree with other posters that the left channel is far hotter than the right, but there are also phasing issues.

Am I correct in thinking that you have recorded the pickup to the left channel and the microphone to the right? If you do this you are very likely to get phase issues because the sound from the pickup transmits pretty well instantly whereas the sound waves take time to reach the microphone.

I took the liberty of downloading the original wav file from Soundcloud and imported it into my editing software. The left channel is indeed around 6dB hotter than the right. In fact, it's clipping, so you'd be better reducing the level on that channel when recording so that it's closer to the level on the right channel.

Having brought the two channels to a similar level I then corrected for phase and came up with the following track:

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/3Jd9Eciu/...he_shells.html

To me it sounds a lot better, so I would say that with equal levels on both channels and correction for the phasing problem you have the makings of a good sound.

Paul

[Doug Young]

Paul, I don't think anyone can listen to your file without signing up for some sharing service I've never heard of?

[paulchevin]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Paul, I don't think anyone can listen to your file without signing up for some sharing service I've never heard of?

Sorry Doug,

I thought I'd set it to public. I'll go back and check!

Paul

[paulchevin]

The link above should now be working. However, just in case it isn't I've now put up a link which should stream directly:

http://chevinsounds.com/Soundclips/B...the_shells.mp3

Paul

[Rick Shepherd]

Oops! Had I paid more attention to what you posted, I would have read that you were using the K&K with one of the mics. Hmmmm, I am wondering why you didn't use both mics to make the recording?

[DarkestDreaming]

Hi all, thanks for taking the time to reply and provide me with constructive feedback. I really appreciate it!

Doug,
I uploaded it to Soundcloud as a wave file, and if i'm not mistaken you can download it right off soundcloud in the exact condition that i uploaded it.

Rick Shepherd,
it is indeed a Knk on the left and mic on the right. That is also the reason for the pull to the left. I panned hard left and right. The reason for the heavy imbalance is because this was essentially the balance of pickup and mic that i was happy with, thus the right (mic channel) being softer.


Paul,
you effectively solved the problem for me by balancing it back center and still maintaining my pickup/mic balance. Can you please share how you did it? Did you send some of the left channel to the right?

Also, I'm aware of phase implications with pickup and mic combos but I didn't seem to be able to hear significant phasing, which is why i didnt phase adjust it. Also, i was under the impression that if both signals dont feed into each others speakers (I'm panned 100% L and R for both sources) there wouldn't be phase. Am i right?


Also Rick,
My room is untreated, I recorded the mic in cardioid mode, close miked at around the 12th fret. I am not well-versed with room treatment. Help me out? Also, the reason why I didn't use both mics was because i was able to get a better sound with one mic and the pickup. I wasn't able to get good solid lows recording in dual mic, i believe because of the untreated room, and despite the close-miking.

[DarkestDreaming]

Here are the raw tracks as i recorded them, KnK 100% left and rode nt-55 100% right so you guys can listen for room sound, noise, phase, pre-effects and recording quality.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/zkxjlo


what i added to it was some reverb, compression and noise removal via iZotope RX. There was no EQ applied

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by DarkestDreaming

Here are the raw tracks as i recorded them, KnK 100% left and rode nt-55 100% right so you guys can listen for room sound, noise, phase, pre-effects and recording quality.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/zkxjlo


what i added to it was some reverb, compression and noise removal via iZotope RX. There was no EQ applied

I'll check them out, any time you record with a pickup and a mic, you're almost certain to not have the signals be in sync the same way as a mic. "Phase" is almost not even the word for it - you can get very different speed of response, radically different dynamics and so on. Mic on one side, pickup on the other is almost certainly not going to produce a natural sound, and will probably sound odd to most people.

[Doug Young]

Nice playing. The sound isn't quite doing you justice yet. The left side is very pickup-sounding. Not terrible, but not ideal, either. Good enough if it was just a little mixed in. The mic side sounds worse tho. You have some room noise, and the mic sound is thin. What I'd do is forget the pickup for now, and focus on getting a good stereo mic sound. Once that's happening, you can easily add a track with the pickup, and mix it in the middle if you want some of that direct sound. But I'd vote for using it as a slight add on, if and only if it really adds something, not because you're getting a bad mic sound.

I got a fairly usable mix from this, I think, by using the MS decoder trick I posted about some time back and applying Billy McLaughlin levels of reverb :-). The pickup tone still bugs me, at least. But I don't want to derail you with mixing tricks, I'd focus on getting a good stereo mic sound nailed, then go from there. Read up on room treatment - lots of stuff on the web, and it's been discussed tons here, tho you should be able to get a perfectly usable sound with close micing in most typical furnished room. Those Rode mics should sound better than this, so I'd keep working on it. Learning to use mics takes time!

[DarkestDreaming]

Hi Doug,

I read up on the stereo miking techniques in the link you provided for me in the initial Mixing solo fingerstyle thread. I took a couple of weeks trying out most of the techniques but they didn't sound satisfactory, I guess mostly because of the room i am in (i have tried multiple mic positions with equally weak results)

As for room treatment, i am confused with the actual terminology. Am i supposed to treat the room by soundproofing it entirely? Or slapping bass traps and absorbers here and there like the room treatment of a console room in the studio? Or is it like setting up a makeshift vocal booth in my house?

[ukejon]

If you read up in the thread posted below, there is some terrific info on room treatments. Folks on this board were very generous with their advice. On p. 5 is a pic of my "treatment". Rather than treat the whole room, which was not really necessary since I am not a professional recording/mixing/mastering person, I created a little isolation space to reduce unwanted echo and room noise. Probably takes down the ambient sound about 50% which in turn is a big benefit when doing mic recording. The mic hears more instrument and less of the other unwanted room noise that creeps into a recording:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...=240951&page=5

By the way, I added a corner bass trap at the rear to extend my space a bit.