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  #106  
Old 02-22-2019, 06:56 AM
Pnewsom Pnewsom is offline
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In the long run it doesn't really matter what you use for sound reinforcement. Most folks in the audience don't care, unless it's annoying them.
If you want overcome all the noise from people talking, sing a song that they like and they'll quiet right down. Works every time!

If you pay attention you can hear the conversation level go up when you're playing a tune that they don't respond to. Get out of it quick and try to get back on track with the next one. Kind of like fishing in a way, the fish don't bite on the tackle box...

A large repertoire and the ability to figure out what kind of folks your playing for is really what's needed for general pub entertainment. Hopefully the tunes you do match up with the people you are playing for, which is not always the case.
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  #107  
Old 02-22-2019, 07:06 AM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Originally Posted by Creekside Guitar View Post
This thread has gotten way off track. Any solo performer who uses a bose system or similar has a built in mixer. If you are a solo performer and want to carry around a few cabs and a mixer and extra cables, all the power to you.

For me, it is about simplicity and a basic setup that gets my sound across. It's all about what works for you and sound is SO subjective. It took me a while to find a working, lightweight solution. I use the bose S1 with a edb2 preamp into a k&k equipped Martin. This gives me flexibility for larger venues as well. I can run out of the edb2 into the house PA, or run out of the S1 into the house PA, and use the bose as a monitor. For my use at breweries, wineries, etc......the bose S1 is more than enough. It is also nice to be able to carry the S1 in its backpack, my guitar and a mic stand in one trip.
The original question by the OP was would he "need" a mixer for solo performances. "Need" is totally subjective.
Personally, I find I don't "need" a P.A. at all; just my Fishman Loudbox Artist amp. It has plenty of power, great EQ, effects and it sounds sweet. It has a D.I out, two channels and weighs 29 pounds. I'm 69 and I can handle carrying it to where we play. It's usually about 50-75 feet from my car to the room we're in.
In the situations I'm in it's just fine. Everybody has different wants and needs.
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  #108  
Old 02-22-2019, 07:42 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnewsom View Post
In the long run it doesn't really matter what you use for sound reinforcement. Most folks in the audience don't care, unless it's annoying them.
If you want overcome all the noise from people talking, sing a song that they like and they'll quiet right down. Works every time!

If you pay attention you can hear the conversation level go up when you're playing a tune that they don't respond to. Get out of it quick and try to get back on track with the next one. Kind of like fishing in a way, the fish don't bite on the tackle box...

A large repertoire and the ability to figure out what kind of folks your playing for is really what's needed for general pub entertainment. Hopefully the tunes you do match up with the people you are playing for, which is not always the case.
To the contrary, I played all "back forty" songs for a set last night and the crowd quieted right down - after the noisy people all left.
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  #109  
Old 02-22-2019, 07:52 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by krisls View Post
In a noisy bar the background conversation and general noise can sit around 100db
Wow! I can't imagine trying to listen in a room where the background noise is that high. I wouldn't even bother staying to here the music, unless I thought it was going to clear out or get MUCH quieter before the music started.
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  #110  
Old 02-22-2019, 07:55 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by lkingston View Post
For seated audiences, but you lose all the highs when you have a standing crowd.
Interesting point.

I've never noticed that, but then anywhere I've been listening has been where almost everybody is seated.
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  #111  
Old 02-22-2019, 08:03 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by The Kid! View Post
You also seem to prefer, "ok" to "great," as well.
Absolutely NOT true.

Though it's always possible that what one person thinks is "great" is just another person's "OK".

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It <mixing> should be part of that skill set.
In an ideal world, yes.

But in an ideal world, I'd also be a skilled singer/songwriter and handsome.


Quote:
If YOU are happy with YOUR sound, then I'm thrilled for you. I'm sure it sounds fine, and if you're getting re-booked, all is well.
I thought I had made it clear (apparently not?) that I am not a singer/songwriter. I'm just a LISTENER . . . which is one reason I thought people might like to hear things from MY perspective.

Although I do play a bit, and I sing karaoke a bit, and have even written one song, and know my way around a mixer reasonable well, I am NOT any kind of performing musician.

I could probably make a killing getting people to pay to make the STOP, though.

Quote:
However, saying that most people with Bose gear are almost never too loud, and most people with conventional gear are almost always too loud, is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.
Again, I thought I made it clear that this was MY experience (as a listener). Extrapolation can be a dangerous thing, but when I see somebody show up with a Bose, I pretty much assume that he's not gonna be too loud.
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  #112  
Old 02-22-2019, 08:06 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Hmmm - so I might be shooting myself in the foot to have a more even sound spread. In my mind, I'm considering that many of the regulars like to sit at the bar, and I'm thinking it would be nice if they could hear better. On the other hand, maybe they prefer to be sitting in a place where the sound level is greatly reduced.
That's an interesting question.

Again, in MY experience (mainly restaurants that also have bars), the people who want to LISTEN and those who would prefer to TALK seem to be fairly uniformly distributed around the restaurant and the bar. Not a very good situation at all, but that's just the way it is.

It's quite clear that many people aren't even expecting music, and some of those are actually annoyed by it.

I have no idea how performers (like yourself) deal with that.
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  #113  
Old 02-22-2019, 08:08 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by phcorrigan View Post
can anyone recommend some online sources on the basics of setting up sound single singer/guitar players or small groups of musicians in smaller venues?
I've seen some videos explaining how to EQ vocals on Youtube.

I hadn't thought to look for anything like what you describe.
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  #114  
Old 02-22-2019, 09:06 PM
krisls krisls is offline
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SongwriterFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by krisls View Post
In a noisy bar the background conversation and general noise can sit around 100db
**
Wow! I can't imagine trying to listen in a room where the background noise is that high. I wouldn't even bother staying to here the music, unless I thought it was going to clear out or get MUCH quieter before the music started.
**
Download a decent db meter to your ph and have a look at levels in a bar or even cafe. You will be surprised just how loud it can get. A bar at 9 on a Fri night with about 100 people scattered about ordering chatting playing pool watching whatever sport... it will sit at least late 80s' db and as things progress mid to high 90's is not outrageous. If the music is not around that point you'll be mostly just ignored. Life as an artiste eh....

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  #115  
Old 02-23-2019, 02:04 PM
The Kid! The Kid! is offline
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
Absolutely NOT true.

Though it's always possible that what one person thinks is "great" is just another person's "OK".



In an ideal world, yes.

But in an ideal world, I'd also be a skilled singer/songwriter and handsome.




I thought I had made it clear (apparently not?) that I am not a singer/songwriter. I'm just a LISTENER . . . which is one reason I thought people might like to hear things from MY perspective.

Although I do play a bit, and I sing karaoke a bit, and have even written one song, and know my way around a mixer reasonable well, I am NOT any kind of performing musician.

I could probably make a killing getting people to pay to make the STOP, though.



Again, I thought I made it clear that this was MY experience (as a listener). Extrapolation can be a dangerous thing, but when I see somebody show up with a Bose, I pretty much assume that he's not gonna be too loud.
I assume that anyone that shows up with any underpowered system isn’t going to be too loud. Power isn’t always about volume. I’d rather have a bigger system working well within its means, than a smaller system shouting its lungs out. My system has flexible EQ, and a volume fader.

Haha, my fault entirely! I didn’t know that you didn’t play out. I would have probably steered clear had I comprehended that from your posts. Take care!
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  #116  
Old 03-02-2019, 10:56 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Well, I hate to bring this thread up again, but why not?

Tonight I stopped in to a venue that I go to regularly (complete with brick walls and concrete floors, as mentioned before) to hear a band that many people around here see to like. They aren't really my cup of tea, so I didn't stay very long.

But, they did show up with more power than the typical Bose stick (though it was a pair of Bose F1 speakers with the subwoofer). See here

https://www.bose.com/en_us/products/...ofer_pkg_black

They even had their own sound guy, running some sort of Wifi router. Looked to me like it might've been the QSC Touch Mix TM16 (see here):

http://justaudiovisual.com/product/q...6-audio-mixer/

Anyway, they were (as I would've predicted), WAY too loud. 100 db at the very back of the room. I very quickly put in my earplugs. I have no idea how others can stand the music that loud. My ears may still ring tonight from the 2 or 3 songs I listened to without the earplugs.

Not only way too loud, but (at least to me) the vocals were "buried" in the mix. Well, not completely buried . . they could be heard, but not understood (at least by me).

I've often wondered if it was "just me" who has this issue, but tonight the band proved my point for me. Ha. They played a new song, which they said they'd only played three times before. And the lead singer then says he's going to hold up signs with the lyrics because people have complained that they can't understand them. Priceless!

At that point, their sound guy was sitting at a table JUST in front of me. I was tempted to tap him on the shoulder and say "did you hear what he just said? and do you know it's YOUR fault?". But I didn't.

I went and listened to some of their stuff on Youtube (from the albums), and it's mixed where you can understand the vocals. So, SOME sound guy knows what he's doing (when in the studio). But this mix was a very good example of what happens almost all the time when I hear large groups mixed in local places. Doesn't really matter if they have a sound guy or not. But yes, there ARE exceptions.

Here's a short clip I shot tonight (when he was holding up the lyrics). When he did this, I knew I had to take a video clip and come back here to this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyjCYI47tNU

That bit was actually not as bad as some of the other songs I listened to (in terms of burying the vocals).

I suppose some of it as articulation (or the lack thereof) in the vocals. But since somebody is able to clean it up in the studio, I'd think a really good sound guy could fix it in a live mix, too.

I guess I'm just too picky. Curious what you (The Kid!) thinks of this mix and whether I'm just being a "grumpy old man". LOL.
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  #117  
Old 03-03-2019, 01:05 AM
phcorrigan phcorrigan is offline
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
Not only way too loud, but (at least to me) the vocals were "buried" in the mix.
I've seen this way too often with rock bands in venues large and small.
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  #118  
Old 03-03-2019, 03:50 AM
Marty C Marty C is offline
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Yes, me too. That's one reason I hate acoustic (not electronic) drums. The sound guy always brings the rest of the band up to the level of the drums. Then everything is just loud. Even if he can create the right mix so the vocals cut through, because of the drums you still can't hear it. And sometimes, it's just the drummer playing way too aggressive.

I was once in Reno and heard a rock band in a casino. I didn't care for their type of music, but the sound was great and I listened to them until they finished. Digital drums, no guitar amps on stage and in ear monitors. The sound guy (actually a member of the band) did an excellent job and I feel sure he could leave that mix fairly consistent no matter where they played. They had two speakers in front and maybe a small sub in the back near the drummer. Was not loud, but every instrument and vocal was clearly heard.
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  #119  
Old 03-03-2019, 04:25 AM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is offline
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Originally Posted by Marty C View Post
That's one reason I hate acoustic (not electronic) drums...And sometimes, it's just the drummer playing way too aggressive.
It's always the drummer; not the drums. Quietest drummer I ever had played my old Ludwig kit with dinner tables right in front of him with never a complaint. Drummers get too much leeway in the volume department and are always getting to set the volume by how they like to play rather than letting the music decide. An electronic kit can tame an undisciplined drummer but a drummer with great musical sense can play at any volume.
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  #120  
Old 03-03-2019, 05:54 AM
Marty C Marty C is offline
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Originally Posted by Nama Ensou View Post
It's always the drummer; not the drums. Quietest drummer I ever had played my old Ludwig kit with dinner tables right in front of him with never a complaint. Drummers get too much leeway in the volume department and are always getting to set the volume by how they like to play rather than letting the music decide. An electronic kit can tame an undisciplined drummer but a drummer with great musical sense can play at any volume.
"a drummer with great musical sense can play at any volume".

Agreed.
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