does this sound out of tune on your guitar?

[Roy]

If you have a couple of minutes, and an electronic tuner, tune the middle 4 strings in an open A chord (one at a time) so they are *exactly* in tune according to your tuner..

..that is, tune each of these individually (the A string open; the D, G and B strings should be tuned as shown (fretted, not open))

X
2
2
2
0
X

Now, play the middle 4 strings together (A chord). Does it sound out of tune to you?

Play a barre version of the chord (move up a couple of frets). Does that sound out of tune? It sure does on my guitar (even though the tuner says each string is in tune).

Maybe this is the "equal temperment" problem???

[~j~]

I think your finger pressure can really vary the pitch a lot even at this point, that's why you're not supposed to tune using fretted notes--ex.harmonics--I would guess. Also maybe depends on the quality of tuner you are using. you're counting on your fingers to give consistent pressure when you're doing the tuning, and when you're playing them all together, but I think when you tune you are using more of your whole hand strength for that one note, and for a chord it is more divided up.

on my les paul I have 9 to 46's and when I bend over to change the setting on my processor it sounds very unhappy and out of tune, then goes back perfect when I even out my hands on the strings.

don't hurt yourself trying to figure it out I guess

[jam]

Roy, just curious... after you tuned the strings, did you go back and recheck the tuning of all the strings? It's possible that the difference in the neck tension changed the tuning on the open A. (or any of the other strings) Whenever I tune a guitar, I always double-check the tuning - especially if all the strings were out to begin with. If you think about it, you start with the some string, then as you work your way across the neck, you increase or decrease the tension on the neck as you tighten the others. There's a good likelyhood that if you had to do a lot of tuning, the starting point needs to be revisited.

Just a thought.

--jam

[Roy]

Jam:
Yeah, I'm aware of the effect you are talking about. I'm gonna spend some more time with the guitar to try to understand what I'm hearing.

~j~:
I don't think finger pressure is the culprit....with mediums (11's) I find very little sensitivity of the intonation to reasonable variations in finger pressure.

[Roy]

OK, I spent some time with my guitar and here's my theory.

First, I made the suggested experiment too difficult. Just tune your G and B strings with a tuner, then pluck them together. On my guitar, that interval (a third) sounds "more out of tune" than **the same interval played on any other pair of adjacent strings**. (Its a wound G, unwound B string).

I think its because of the overtones....maybe the overtones from wound strings are different somehow than those from unwound strings. This causes a third interval between a wound and unwound string to sound somewhat out of tune.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Sorry....it's the scientist in me.

[jam]

Hmmm....fascinating (said in Professor from Gilligan's Island voice).

Just curious which guitar you did this on. Also curious if it has anything to do with tuning higher. Most alternate tunings that I've played with are tuned down and the open chords ring true.

Hmm...

--jam

[Roy]

regular tuning, 310KCE.

[LarryH in Texas]

Originally posted by jam
Hmmm....fascinating (said in Professor from Gilligan's Island voice).

Hmm...

--jam

Don't remember the professor using "fascinating." I thought that was Mr Spock's word.

[JazzDude]

I suspect your intonation is way out. This can happen if you have old or damaged strings or if your bridge or neck need adjustment.

To test this, you can compare the tuning of the fretted notes when the open string has been tuned.

The easiest way is to tune the open string, then fret the string at the 12th fret and check the tuning. This should be close, but probably not exactly in tune. If you have a chromatic tuner, you can check all the fretted notes.

If you have a guitar tuner, the G string 4th fret should be the same as the B string, and the 9th fret should be the same as the high E.

The B string 5th fret is the high E and the 10th fret should match the G string on the tuner.

[Roy]

Originally posted by JazzDude
I suspect your intonation is way out. This can happen if you have old or damaged strings or if your bridge or neck need adjustment.

To test this, you can compare the tuning of the fretted notes when the open string has been tuned.

The easiest way is to tune the open string, then fret the string at the 12th fret and check the tuning. This should be close, but probably not exactly in tune. If you have a chromatic tuner, you can check all the fretted notes.

If you have a guitar tuner, the G string 4th fret should be the same as the B string, and the 9th fret should be the same as the high E.

The B string 5th fret is the high E and the 10th fret should match the G string on the tuner.

The intonation is pretty good on my 310KCE...open strings match the harmonics at the 12th fret, and fretted notes at various positions are also in tune (according to the tuner..no more than 2-3 cents off at most).

In fact, the two notes I'm comparing are exactly the ones I just tuned with my tuner....that's my point....two notes, that are in tune individually, don't sound very good as a third interval when one string is wound and the other isn't wound.

[~j~]

I think out of tune for a tuner is like 10 cents, but you can distinguish down to like 5 cents difference (waves are still far enough apart to hear beats)--

if you tune the strings open with the tuner, then tune them together on the interval (it's a 4th up or a 5th down, you should be able to know if they're in tune this way) then check the tuning of the strings fretted at 2nd fret, then tune them again to the intervals, the chord overall should be fine... otherwise bad intonation probs, but this seems very unlikely at 2nd fret...

on a note I always tune to harmonics, then the perfect fifths at the 5th fret, just to be sure.... there's almost always a problem around the G and B so I just tune to the interval and leave it alone

[JazzDude]

Originally posted by Roy


The intonation is pretty good on my 310KCE...open strings match the harmonics at the 12th fret, and fretted notes at various positions are also in tune (according to the tuner..no more than 2-3 cents off at most).

In fact, the two notes I'm comparing are exactly the ones I just tuned with my tuner....that's my point....two notes, that are in tune individually, don't sound very good as a third interval when one string is wound and the other isn't wound.

Well, open strings will always match the harmonics - I assume you meant the fretted note matches. If intonation is not a problem, and the notes are actually in tune, then it's a mystery to me.

Equal temperment does create a slightly dissonant major and minor third. If you bend the lower note so the interval falls between the two, that is what a just tempered third sounds like. However, most of us are already accustomed to the equal tempered major third sound and make appropriate allowances.

[Roy]

...well, Jazzdude was right....I changed to a new set of strings and the problem went away. I think maybe the overtones change as strings age/corrode, and it causes them to sound bad, even when they are supposedly "in tune".

[Kurtis]

Three stories:

1) I used to always notice that the B string sounded wrong to me (this is pre-Taylor; I owned an Alvarez) and I always used to tune using 5th and 7th fret harmonics to get the fourth. Bad idea! That harmonic you get at the fifth fret is a natural third not a tempered third, and you will always be out of tune. It won't be too bad until you reach the first string you can't tune that way (the B) and tune it using the 7th fret harmonic of the E string. The third interval will be WAY off. Moral: don't do this!

2) Right after I bought my Taylor, I went back and was setting up my Alvarez to give to my sister-in-law who wanted to learn to play, and I realized I was hearing a bad B string again. Chalking it up to a damaged guitar (I really mistreated the Alvarez) I went to see the guy who sold me my Taylor to see if he could advise me. Well, have you ever wondered about that shift in the bridge at the B string? Nice guitars have it (my 414ce,) but cheap guitars don't (like my Alvarez didn't.) That shift is to account for the change to unwound strings and tension difference for intonation. Basically the B string's intonation will always be off without it.

3) On one set of GHS Bright Bronze strings I put on my Taylor I noticed that everything above the fourth fret was out of tune on my D string immediately after changing. I suspected intonation, but the lower frets were perfect and the frets just above it were well out of tune. which seemed odd. I played it for a few days, and it never got better, so I took it to the aforementioned guy, who commented that there was a lot of corrosion just above that fret, and I should try new strings. He put them on and the problem went away. He explained that the corrosion affects the way the string stretches (it keeps the tension in the string from being uniform) and thus the string doesn't vibrate with the right tension when fretted past the corrosion.

Just some food for thought.

[Roy]

Originally posted by Kurtis
.....corrosion affects the way the string stretches (it keeps the tension in the string from being uniform) and thus the string doesn't vibrate with the right tension when fretted past the corrosion.

Just some food for thought.

wow....never thought of that...seems to make sense