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Old 07-02-2020, 01:09 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Default Mastering levels advice

Hi all

I have been using Reaper for a month or so now, having changed over from Auria on my IPad.

I have a question for the recording experts out there around achieving the optimum output level (usually for YouTube, so -14 LUFS)

I try to record at between -12 and -18 dB and then make whatever tweaks I want, such as EQ/Reverb and then look to increase output level.

As I see it I have a few options, and this is where I would appreciate some guidance please;

1. Normalise - not my preference but does the job

2. Manually via master channel slider in Reaper, while watching the results in my loudness meter to achieve the correct levels

3. Manually via the volume sliders on the two individual tracks (L & R) - does anybody adjust these independently or both by the same amount (my neck channel is obviously quieter than my bridge channel)

3. Manually via the output gain slider in Ozone maximiser (without the maximiser engaged)

4. Using the Ozone maximiser to increase volume - this has been my goto up to now, being careful not to reduce threshold below about -3-4 dB and leaving some ceiling headroom around -1dB for YT.

I ma trying to establish best practice to achieve good level whilst preserving quality of recording as much as possible. I realise the answer may be a combination of the above.

Any advice as to how those in this forum set up their workflow would be great - thanks.

Peter.
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Last edited by Wrighty; 07-02-2020 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 07-02-2020, 08:44 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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R and L volumes balanced during post recording tweaks (track delay, equalization and reverb to taste).

Final overall volume is tune dependent (different pieces of music vary in dynamic range mood).

As far as youtube, you can compare your recording's volume to other guitar music on youtube. If you need to increase or decrease it's volume to be similar that is easy to do.
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:06 AM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
R and L volumes balanced during post recording tweaks (track delay, equalization and reverb to taste).

Final overall volume is tune dependent (different pieces of music vary in dynamic range mood).

As far as youtube, you can compare your recording's volume to other guitar music on youtube. If you need to increase or decrease it's volume to be similar that is easy to do.
Hi rick-slo,

What do you mean when you say, "track delay" to taste?
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:28 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
Hi all

I have been using Reaper for a month or so now, having changed over from Auria on my IPad.

I have a question for the recording experts out there around achieving the optimum output level (usually for YouTube, so -14 LUFS)

I try to record at between -12 and -18 dB and then make whatever tweaks I want, such as EQ/Reverb and then look to increase output level.

As I see it I have a few options, and this is where I would appreciate some guidance please;

1. Normalise - not my preference but does the job

2. Manually via master channel slider in Reaper, while watching the results in my loudness meter to achieve the correct levels

3. Manually via the volume sliders on the two individual tracks (L & R) - does anybody adjust these independently or both by the same amount (my neck channel is obviously quieter than my bridge channel)

3. Manually via the output gain slider in Ozone maximiser (without the maximiser engaged)

4. Using the Ozone maximiser to increase volume - this has been my goto up to now, being careful not to reduce threshold below about -3-4 dB and leaving some ceiling headroom around -1dB for YT.

I ma trying to establish best practice to achieve good level whilst preserving quality of recording as much as possible. I realise the answer may be a combination of the above.

Any advice as to how those in this forum set up their workflow would be great - thanks.

Peter.
If you want to ride volume levels manually in Reaper it's dead easy to simply draw an automation curve on any track, set points, and adjust the volume so it follows any volume envelope you want.

In digital mixing there's no way I could manually ride levels and do away with overs. That's what automation is for.

If you're looking for "maximum volume" it's sometimes necessary to reign in a track that has a few excessive peaks over the total track. This can also be done by using an insert effect like a limiter, but I don't do that personally.

The best thing I can suggest is to make sure you have a meter showing on your master output and mix your tracks to make sure you aren't peaking the meters. If there's a peak or two it's usually pretty easy to look at your tracks on the timeline and figure out what's causing it and pull it down a bit with a volume envelope.

If you mix conservatively you can always normalize the mixed master track, and giving yourself some headroom will let you add a mastering plug in.

I don't know enough to master effectively, so if things don't improve with one of the pre-sets then I don't "master". Someone once said that mastering your own work is like the old adage, "A person who chooses to act as their own lawyer in court has a fool for a client".
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:41 PM
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Hi rick-slo,

What do you mean when you say, "track delay" to taste?
Usually within two or three tenths of a millisecond delay on the right or left track of a stereo recording is enough to shift which frequencies are better in phase (constructive versus destructive phase alignment). You can pick what you like by ear. Doing this you have more freedom on where to place each microphone distance wise from the guitar wise. Tweaking a stereo track delay will also shift the perceptual soundstage a bit to the right or left though that is a relatively minor consideration.

This is mainly noticeable on play back through headphones, not through speakers. Since I mainly do my serious listening with headphones these days that is what I concentrate on when tweaking recordings.

A VST plugin for example:

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Last edited by rick-slo; 07-02-2020 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 07-02-2020, 01:40 PM
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This is a complicated topic, but as far as levels, Ozone works well. Set the target for -14 or -15LUFS, and pull the threshold slider down until you're hitting it, more or less. There's also a "learn threshold" button that will find the right setting to hit the target. I often do that to get in the ballpark, then back off, since they're a bit too aggressive for solo guitar. I don't want to hear any compression. Depending on the material, you may need to do other things, like manually adjusting peaks to get the overall level reasonable without any overs.
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Old 07-02-2020, 02:31 PM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
This is a complicated topic, but as far as levels, Ozone works well. Set the target for -14 or -15LUFS, and pull the threshold slider down until you're hitting it, more or less. There's also a "learn threshold" button that will find the right setting to hit the target. I often do that to get in the ballpark, then back off, since they're a bit too aggressive for solo guitar. I don't want to hear any compression. Depending on the material, you may need to do other things, like manually adjusting peaks to get the overall level reasonable without any overs.


Thanks Doug - this is what I have been doing (learn threshold) but have found it to be too aggressive.

Do you make any other adjustments to levels from tracking to this stage such as adjusting track volume slider or output level in Maximiser?

I guess I am trying to understand if I am better off just increasing levels via other means rather than limiting, given I am not trying to hit high levels (-14 LUFS)
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  #8  
Old 07-02-2020, 02:59 PM
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Some tunes and recordings can vary as to what sounds best volume wise. Say you have a pretty tune with a certain sweetness and calmness and you want bring that out. A higher volume on that may work against it whereas another piece may benefit for greater impact. Of course you can reach for the playback device volume knob between tunes but the less of that needed is probably a good idea. Thinking mainly about maximizing volume on things is shades of the volume wars issues.
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
Thanks Doug - this is what I have been doing (learn threshold) but have found it to be too aggressive.

Do you make any other adjustments to levels from tracking to this stage such as adjusting track volume slider or output level in Maximiser?

I guess I am trying to understand if I am better off just increasing levels via other means rather than limiting, given I am not trying to hit high levels (-14 LUFS)
For solo guitar, I generally just know what my levels need to be, starting with the recording. You can definitely adjust the individual track volume, if needed. The threshold thing on Ozone is just a handy way of fine tuning to the final target. All that threshold control is doing raising the gain ahead of the limiter, so it's more or less the same no matter what volume control you use. You can watch the history and momentary graphs in Ozone to know if you're actually compressing. I generally try to see it claim to be doing nothing (but it does do a little)

As Rick says, levels vary from tune to tune. I don't worry about the exact level unless I'm putting together multiple tracks on a CD, and even there, you want to listen and see if tunes flow into each other right. Numbers on the meter may not translate to a good flow between songs. I think you can see my basic workflow in this video I did for Acoustic Guitar, including adjusting the levels, tho I probably didn't go very deep into the levels:

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Old 07-03-2020, 12:51 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Thanks Doug - I re-watched the video and found it very helpful. I suppose it comes down to the question of whether I should be considering level tweaks before I get to adding the maximiser to the master channel or in fact whether I add it to the master channel as an early (first?) step and then use the limiter to achieve roughly the correct output (knowing that some plugins will increase gain) - in this case all faders remain on 0.

I am not so concerned about getting the output level exactly right but rather making sure I get it to a decent level for Youtube and most importantly that there is no loss of quality - it’s the order of play or process that is confusing me a little as there are so many ways to change volume along the way!
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Old 07-03-2020, 12:58 AM
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Well, if you're all digital, it probably doesn't matter too much where you adjust levels. You want a decent signal recorded, but beyond that, as long as you're not overloading any other plugins, you're probably fine no matter what.

For solo guitar, I generally just record at a -6db level (peaks, not average), and usually just have the channel faders at 0db, no cut, no boost. Then make up any gain needed with Ozone, which usually isn't much. If you are recording multiple tracks and mixing, then it's different and I end up pulling down individual tracks to keep from overloading the master bus input, and of course just to set relative volumes.
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Old 07-03-2020, 04:13 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Well, if you're all digital, it probably doesn't matter too much where you adjust levels. You want a decent signal recorded, but beyond that, as long as you're not overloading any other plugins, you're probably fine no matter what.



For solo guitar, I generally just record at a -6db level (peaks, not average), and usually just have the channel faders at 0db, no cut, no boost. Then make up any gain needed with Ozone, which usually isn't much. If you are recording multiple tracks and mixing, then it's different and I end up pulling down individual tracks to keep from overloading the master bus input, and of course just to set relative volumes.


Great - nice and simple, that helps a lot so thank you.

I find that my recording levels into the Audient interface have tended to be lower and between -12 and -18 so I can ratchet this up a little.

I have recently moved house and have a new recording space which I have treated to a degree and am just in the process of making some initial recordings to test mic and sitting position - it’s their first time in a while I haven’t used my Zoom to record.

I plan to post the recording here in a day or two and would love to hear your critical evaluation of the sound with a view to the above.

Cheers for now.

Peter
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