Negotiating on build price

[Fast Jimmy]

When I first decided to purchase a custom built guitar, I discussed the build with my chosen luthier and what I desired in the guitar. He inquired what my budget was and then informed me he couldn't do it for that price. He then offered suggestions as to what could be done to get to my price point along with suggestions as to what would suit me best based on my playing skills and expectations. We went ahead with the guitar and what I got from him was so far above my expectations I was blown away. Some of the things I had desired but told weren't possible, appeared in the build, gratis. And of course the sound and appearance were fantastic. A year or two later, with more self knowledge both about my playing skills and desired characteristics in a guitar, I commissioned another build with the same luthier. I left a lot of decisions, other than items I specified, in his hands and only had a general idea of the final price. In the end, I feel I received a guitar with upgrades and finish beyond my expectations at a price well within what I expected to pay. I'm not sure every luthier on this forum would do the same, but I expect they would.
Fast Jimmy

[joeld]

I guess I wouldn't. Instead I'd find a luthier that offered something in my price range. If I asked for a discount, I'd have a concern that I might not get the builder's best effort. In the case of a factory guitar from a store, I might ask for a better deal to motivate my purchase, unless I already thought the deal was good.

Anyways, if you find the right instrument, its original price makes little difference after a few decades of enjoyment!

[Flat5]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

OP here. I am sorry that you are offended by a legitimate question posed by someone who is new to the world of guitars and is legitimately trying to understand the dynamics in a marketplace that is new to me as well. This is what due diligence means.
May I suggest that you go back to my query and reread it. It was posed with no pretext or suggestion that luthiers do not earn an honest living or that I do not value what they do. As an artist and musician, I do.
My friend, there are subjects that are inherently offensive. I respectfully suggest to you that, in a world of chaotic and disturbing ideas and senseless controversy, this is not one of them.
David

Although I share the same basic views of most everyone here, I’d also like to express sympathy to you. It’s very clear that this is new business for you. Whoever’s commissioned a guitar understands that the process is not an acquisition, but a creation. You go to a luthier because you have a more or less clear idea of what you want, and you’re investing in something that doesn’t yet exist. I can assure you that putting a discrete to considerable amount of money in the hands of a luthier by commissioning a new guitar entails a proportional act of good faith. You can’t evaluate the object beforehand, and you want the person undertaking the commission to deliver at the best of his/her capabilities.
So the point is not “how much is that going to cost me”, but “will this person deliver to my expectations?”
You will need the luthier to understand exactly your expectations and guide you through the specification, then make all of it happen.
In my humble experience, that’s a completely different kind of transaction.
As for the price, if you’re going to a certain luthier, you’ve probably already decided that you can afford the price tag.
As you’ll have grasped at this point, haggling is not generally welcome, but gracious concessions sometimes happen.

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by Flat5

Although I share the same basic views of most everyone here, I’d also like to express sympathy to you. It’s very clear that this is new business for you. Whoever’s commissioned a guitar understands that the process is not an acquisition, but a creation. You go to a luthier because you have a more or less clear idea of what you want, and you’re investing in something that doesn’t yet exist. I can assure you that putting a discrete to considerable amount of money in the hands of a luthier by commissioning a new guitar entails a proportional act of good faith. You can’t evaluate the object beforehand, and you want the person undertaking the commission to deliver at the best of his/her capabilities.
So the point is not “how much is that going to cost me”, but “will this person deliver to my expectations?”
You will need the luthier to understand exactly your expectations and guide you through the specification, then make all of it happen.
In my humble experience, that’s a completely different kind of transaction.
As for the price, if you’re going to a certain luthier, you’ve probably already decided that you can afford the price tag.
As you’ll have grasped at this point, haggling is not generally welcome, but gracious concessions sometimes happen.

OP here. Thanks you for that excellent insight.
David

[chippygreen]

Originally Posted by theEdwinson

I ALWAYS give my clients a few extras at no charge, because as an artisan's prerogative, I feel that having some creative latitude on every build is a luxury, for ME, the builder. I've had a number of clients who pushed me outside my comfort zone and made me question my choice of careers, but the large majority have been splendid people to work with, and I've made many fine friends in this work.

I do everything I can to give my clients a lot of guitar for the money, and while my reward for that may not be financial, I have to say the satisfaction of putting a dream guitar into someone's hands gives me a kind of satisfaction I can't get any other way. I am in the business of making people happy. I am in the business of making these devices that enable people to speak the universal language of humanity-- MUSIC. How many people can truthfully say that about their jobs?

Yeah, sometimes I feel exhausted from the toil and the razor's edge margins I earn. But most of the time I feel far more blessed than I have a right to be.

I really appreciate the sentiments Steve shares here and it explains my own approach for my first custom not to ask for discounts (something I shamelessly negotiate for auto repair and home repair).

And while I have not had the privilege of working with Steve (though I am happy his Fedex saga came to an incredible storybook ending), this was exactly my experience with Michael Bashkin, who went to great lengths to work with me on my first commission, linked in the signature below.

Like Steve does for his clients, Michael went above and beyond to build a guitar that made me incredibly happy, and I don't think he would mind me saying that he seems to have enjoyed the process as well. To have that wonderful collaboration and connection to the artist, the price list is secondary to me, and I was treated more than fairly on anything Michael and I agreed on that was not part of the standard base price.

I realize not everyone who orders a commission has a stable of Ferraris and multiple vacation homes (I do not either), and for some the commission is a very expensive gift from a loved one or a retirement present to self after many years of hard work. That money is hard earned and carefully spent.

My advice is shop within your budget - there are many incredible luthiers out there at several price points - but find someone you can work with and will enjoy the process of working with. For me the build is as much fun as playing the instrument, and the interactive process is what makes it custom, and what makes it yours.

The money, once you have decided to spend it, becomes "just money". You are putting food on the table of the person who has devoted years to craftsmanship that will deliver years of happiness to you, even if that happiness sometimes takes months to retrieve from the cobwebs in the back of a dusty Fedex warehouse.

[JamesO]

Originally Posted by mercy

You couldnt live on that $2000 in Los Angeles or San Fransico but you could in the Fresno area.

As a lifelong Fresno resident, I feel comfortable saying you can't.

[mercy]

Admittedly Ive not lived in Fresno for a long time but you can in the cities around Fresno still. You miss the point, there are many, most of the US where 2K is enough. Further, Im acknowledging that most builders dont make much from the craft.

[Adamski]

Should you negotiate with a luthier? That, as the buyer, is up to you.

Should the luthier accept the offer? That is, of course, up to them.

I have bought many guitars and have commissioned a few, generally I don’t negotiate but there are a few business decisions to be made when conducting any transaction:

i) everything has a consequence. If you ask for a discount, the luthier quite rightly may decide that the fancy rosette or binding that they were going to do for free…they now won’t. Equally though, if you’re going to commission an instrument, splash it all over the AGF and tell all your friends about it is doing something positive for the luthier. There's balance to be had.
ii) If you commission 2 or 3 instruments that is again, potentially a very different conversation to commissioning just one instrument.
iii) what is the cost of ownership going to be? If you are buying an instrument and the luthier’s prices are rising quickly, then probably if/when you sell it you will break even or make a profit. Is that important to you? Some of my friends see the loss they make on each purchase and sales as a “tax” on suffering with GAS, some make a profit and see this as fair for "taking a risk" and supporting luthiers in the early days or simply "buying smart". If the luthier’s prices are constant, as a buyer you face much higher cost of ownership of the instrument. SteveH sold me my first really good guitar, a Sobell Model 0, when I bought it for him I said two very stupid things. 1) I will never sell this, and 2) I don’t need another guitar now. He laughed at me and said “we’ll see”!

I think though that the important thing to remember is that a luthier is doing what they love and if they’re good there will always be more customers. And as a buyer, that luthier is not the only person making guitars and most guitar buyers irrespective of how well paid or rich they are are having to make decision about what they spend their money on a guitar, a holiday, remodelling on their home...there's not an endless supply of it and choices need to be made.

The one time I did try to “strike a deal” (many years ago now) as I was offering to buy three instruments from a luthier and thought I made a fair offer…the luthier told me to p*&^ off!

Either way, nobody is forcing the luthier to sell to me and nobody is forcing me to buy, so there’s a middle ground where both parties should be happy.