Luthiers--Lignum Vitae back and sides?? Check this out...

[GaultierRedon14]

I just happened to see a listing for Lignum Vitae back and side sets for sale at Hibdon Hardwoods. Here is a link:

http://www.hibdonhardwood.com/collec...e-set-ligv-902

Based on the unique properties of Lignum Vitae (hardest/densest wood in the world, oily and doesn't glue well), would you expect it to be particularly difficult to build a guitar with this wood?
What would you expect it to contribute tonally? The closest wood in density/hardness commonly used for guitars is African Blackwood, universally considered an outstanding tonewood. However, of course, each wood has it's own unique characteristics.
So, what are your opinions on using this wood for back/sides?

[jim1960]

From the Tonewood Data Source site:

Lignum Vitae Guiacum genus, also called Palo Santo, Guayacan, Ironwood
Lignum Vitae is probably the world's densist wood at 79 lb/cubic foot. The density does vary. It sinks in water. It is also possibly the hardest , with a Janka rating of 4390. It has been called "not resonant" and is, not surprisingly, difficult to scrape and carve. It is oily, hard to glue and to finish, but does polish well. Make very shallow passes, as it may tear out easily. Grain is interlocked and the wood exudes a fragrance. Endangered, it is correspondingly expensive.

The color darkens with age and may be light brown or yellowish/olive. Pete Seeger's banjo's long neck was made from this.

[Howard Klepper]

That set is almost certain to be "Argentine Lignum vitae," which is in the genus Bulnesia. True lignum vitae is in the genus Guaiacum and comes from the West Indies. There are two species of Bulnesia commonly on the hardwood market that get sold either as lignum or as verawood. It has been a long time since anyone has seen a board of true lignum vitae big enough for sawing guitar sets, and it has been CITES listed since 2003 (one of the Bulnesia species got listed in 2010). Hibdon is following the nomenclature of other commercial hardwood dealers, but IMO ought to be more specific about which genus the wood is from.

I can't find any listing for lignum on the Tonewood Data Source link that was provided. However, that is an inconsistently reliable source, whose author warns that he has compiled subjective, anecdotal reports. Lignum vitae is in fact a pleasure to carve because of its density, hardness, and above all, waxiness. It cuts very smoothly and is unexcelled for holding carving detail.

Here's a link to a more reliable source: http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...-lignum-vitae/

My own subjective sense from having worked with this wood is that it will be difficult to glue it reliably, and that it is probably high in damping. Its hardness and natural lubrication do make it a good material for guitar nuts.

[JamesO]

I have a 12oz mallet made of lignum vitae. It's beautiful and hard as a rock. The color is much more streaked with blacks and dark, olive-browns than this set.

[theEdwinson]

Hey, Gaultier Redon, I had a feeling that Dr. Klepper would have some definitive info on this topic. Howard is a walking encyclopedia of useful information!
Thanks, Howard! Gaultier and I are discussing the possibility of a build with this Lignum Vitae (or facsimile) offered at Hibdon. Do you (or anyone else) know if Lignum, with its waxy component, can be successfully and permanently glued with epoxy? Specifically, the Smith All-wood epoxy that LMI sells? I use Smith epoxy to glue Brazilian, Cocobolo, and other oily woods, and it works great- apparently the resins in the woods act as a "kicker" for the chemical reaction that creates the bond. I just wonder if Lignum Vitae is chemically compatible with this glue.
Interesting side-note: Due to its incredible toughness, dimensional stability, and self-lubricating nature, Lignum Vitae was used to build the cogs and gears in sailing ships' rudder steering mechanisms.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by theEdwinson

Hey, Gaultier Redon, I had a feeling that Dr. Klepper would have some definitive info on this topic. Howard is a walking encyclopedia of useful information!
Thanks, Howard! Gaultier and I are discussing the possibility of a build with this Lignum Vitae (or facsimile) offered at Hibdon. Do you (or anyone else) know if Lignum, with its waxy component, can be successfully and permanently glued with epoxy? Specifically, the Smith All-wood epoxy that LMI sells? I use Smith epoxy to glue Brazilian, Cocobolo, and other oily woods, and it works great- apparently the resins in the woods act as a "kicker" for the chemical reaction that creates the bond. I just wonder if Lignum Vitae is chemically compatible with this glue.
Interesting side-note: Due to its incredible toughness, dimensional stability, and self-lubricating nature, Lignum Vitae was used to build the cogs and gears in sailing ships' rudder steering mechanisms.

Well . . . there are other heavy, high damping woods that can make good guitars, such as the ebonies. So I think you are right that gluing is the issue about using this wood. I've never glued either Guaiacum or Bulnesia. Smith's is supposed to be the stuff for oily tropical woods, but I've never used it. The "lignum" woods are not oily the same way rosewoods are. Waxy is the better word for them.

You can guess the suggestion that is coming, right? Get some of each and test.

[theEdwinson]

Yes, testing is the only way to know. And even then...
First time I used hide glue to install a bridge, it pulled up two weeks later.
So: Luthier, know thy materials!