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  #1  
Old 04-29-2018, 12:46 PM
THart THart is offline
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Default 1st archtop

Hullo, enjoying this forum & recently got my first archtop. Not really a good player, I don't play in a band or anything. I just like to relax at home & play a little music. I've always played in a mostly finger style so I've always played on a flat top acoustic. My use of a pick has been mostly playing mandolin (on which I have far less experience than guitar) Any suggestions on what to learn or how to adapt to get the most out of my archtop playing experience?

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Old 04-29-2018, 07:19 PM
Prof_Stack Prof_Stack is offline
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Oh yeah, it looks like a sweetheart! Can you say a few thing about this archtop?
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Old 04-29-2018, 08:12 PM
tdq tdq is offline
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I got myself an acoustic archtop after playing for many years. I play a mixture of styles and a lot of finger picking, but I've found my archtop really needs to be played with a pick, so I don't finger pick on it at all now. Jazz, specifically chord melodies and choppy chords, and alt-country type stuff works really nicely on it. YMMV of course.
EDIT: Heavier strings, too, than what you might be used to on a flat top. I use 0.013 but a few here go much heavier.
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Old 04-29-2018, 08:51 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Looks like a small body...I bet it'd sound great fingerpicked.
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:42 PM
THart THart is offline
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Originally Posted by Prof_Stack View Post
Oh yeah, it looks like a sweetheart! Can you say a few thing about this archtop?
Well, what you like to know? It's a Weber Bitterroot model from '05. Bruce Weber is known mostly as a mandolin maker but he branched out into guitars for a few years anyway. I also have a Weber resonator. It's about 15" in the lower bout. Sitka top, mahogany back & sides. About 4" deep & 1 11/16 nut. I bought it in December but sent it to the Weber shop where the neck was reset. It also got new frets & a new bridge. Crisp sound, every note wherever you play it on every string is very distinct. I don't have too much to compare it with archtop wise. The only other I've played was an L-50 at Mass Street music. That was nice but flatter sounding I'd say. I'm really still listening & looking for how to play it though. I have a lot of work to do to live up to this guitar. Guess I shouldn't have taken that 30 year break
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:51 PM
THart THart is offline
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I got myself an acoustic archtop after playing for many years. I play a mixture of styles and a lot of finger picking, but I've found my archtop really needs to be played with a pick, so I don't finger pick on it at all now. Jazz, specifically chord melodies and choppy chords, and alt-country type stuff works really nicely on it. YMMV of course.
EDIT: Heavier strings, too, than what you might be used to on a flat top. I use 0.013 but a few here go much heavier.
It has mediums on it, the .013's. I was actually thinking of trying lighter strings because, as you say, that's what I'm used to on my flat top (a Martin 00015sm). Maybe they won't sound as good but I think I'll have to at least try that at some point. I don't think I'll go any heavier, it sound awful good to me now & I don't think my fingers would like anything heavier. I do feel like I need to expand my playing style to get the most out of this guitar. Yeah, a pick might be the way to go, clumsy as I feel with one.
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
Looks like a small body...I bet it'd sound great fingerpicked.
15". Finger picking is about all I do & it don't sound bad but I think I may need to try something more. I like to just go bare fingered but maybe a thumb pick would be something to try so I could bring out a few notes here & there. It's just that thumb picks are so stiff, at least the ones I've had. I've seen players use a flat pick & the third & sometimes even the fourth finger. I suppose I could give that a go but it looks tough to me.
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:58 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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That is one heluva "first" guitar by any standard...

If you want to master the basics I'd start with the old Mel Bay Modern Guitar Method - even if you already read music it'll help you get the fundamentals of right-hand picking technique under your belt. During the heyday of the modern (post L-5) acoustic archtop guitar (roughly 1925-1955, when Epiphone closed their New York operation and rock-&-roll brought the electric guitar to preeminence) they were considered virtuoso instruments, descended as much from the violinmaker's craft as from early steel-string flattops, and speaking from 55+ years of experience they require a far-more-refined technique to bring out their best; simply put, don't expect to just sit down and whack away as you would on a dread, and get the same level of instant gratification - if you believe instruments possess a soul, they're going to express their resentment in most-uncertain (and strident) terms. Approach them, however, with an orchestral string-player's technique in both right and left hand - subtlety of touch on the fingerboard ("feel" the note rather than "squeeze") and bow-derived picking ("glide" and "stroke" rather than "pick" and "strum") and you'll be rewarded with a smooth, rich, surprisingly well-balanced and even tone with more carrying power than is obvious to the player; IME archtops, due to their "piston" rather than torsional mode of vibration, tend to develop their sound well in front of the soundboard rather than within the body - those 17" and 18" Big Band-era comp boxes had no problem being heard over a 20-piece full-boogie horn section back in the day (the Mel Bay Rhythm Guitar Chord System - the "compers' Bible" since 1947 - can help you get a handle on this essential element of the archtop vocabulary) - so if yours is properly set up and played with the right technique, chances are you'll need less effort than with a typical flattop. FYI the old '30s/40s guys referred to this as "coaxing the velvet out" - and if you ever have the good fortune to be in the same room with an accomplished player working out on a vintage Epiphone Emperor/Gibson Super 400/D'Angelico New Yorker I can hardly think of a more apt description...

Second, most contemporary players are unaware that there was an entire school of "classical archtop" guitar that flourished from about 1925-1940, and upon which Mel Bay based his aforementioned method; when I was learning in the early-60's the method books bore a statement that they were in fact designed and intended to place the plectrum-style guitar "in the same class as the violin, piano, and other 'legitimate' instruments" (and if you've never hung around in certain so-called "serious" music circles it's difficult to imagine the pejorative attitude directed toward the guitar, even in its "classical" incarnation). FYI, in its original form the classical archtop movement drew from the earlier American school of classical guitar exemplified by the likes of William Foden, Vahdah Olcott-Bickford, et al. (rather than that of Segovia and his Spanish contemporaries, which would become the accepted concert style and instrument), as well as the parlor, "light classical," and vaudeville music of late-19th/early-20th-century America. In addition to transcriptions of well-known classical repertoire, a number of guitarists of the day produced original compositions in a late-Romantic style - music which, while largely out of fashion today, still retains its technical and artistic merit eighty or more years later. Bear in mind that the original Lloyd Loar-designed L-5 archtop guitar was in fact envisioned as a "classical" instrument both tonally and visually, intended as a part of the mandolin orchestras of the late vaudeville era and designed for hall-filling acoustic projection in the days before electronic amplification (note the name on the peghead of your own guitar); were it not for Segovia's sensational American debut in 1928, the plectrum-style archtop guitar - with its violin-family looks and construction - may well have become the accepted "classical" guitar...

BTW, if you're interested there are a number of recordings of these period pieces on YouTube, either in the original (by the likes of Harry Volpe, Al Hendrickson, et al.) or re-recorded by contemporary revivalists; you might also want to check out some of the work of Eddie Lang (both solo and with Joe Venuti on violin), Carl Kress and Dick McDonough, Tony Mottola, and George Van Eps. Finally, once you get some technical proficiency there's an excellent collection published by Mel Bay entitled Masters of the Plectrum Guitar which, if you're brave enough to attempt it, should keep you busy for a while, give you a taste of not only what was but what might have been - and forever change your preconceptions of what an archtop guitar can/cannot do...

Use it well and often...
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:59 PM
THart THart is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
That is one heluva "first" guitar by any standard...



Use it well and often...
When it came up in the classifieds and the seller was less than 30 minutes away it seemed like the only morally responsible thing to do & Thanks for the rest. 30% off Mel Bay titles at the Mandolin Cafe today. 2 books ordered
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Old 04-30-2018, 07:21 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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15". Finger picking is about all I do & it don't sound bad but I think I may need to try something more. I like to just go bare fingered but maybe a thumb pick would be something to try so I could bring out a few notes here & there. It's just that thumb picks are so stiff, at least the ones I've had. I've seen players use a flat pick & the third & sometimes even the fourth finger. I suppose I could give that a go but it looks tough to me.
Hybrid picking is easier to pick up than you might think. I highly reccomend it.

Also, do lots of experimenting with picks--archtops are very sensitive to that...might sound like a whole different instrument if you play it with a different pick!
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Old 05-03-2018, 06:43 PM
jwguitar jwguitar is offline
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Originally Posted by THart View Post
Hullo, enjoying this forum & recently got my first archtop. Not really a good player, I don't play in a band or anything. I just like to relax at home & play a little music. I've always played in a mostly finger style so I've always played on a flat top acoustic. My use of a pick has been mostly playing mandolin (on which I have far less experience than guitar) Any suggestions on what to learn or how to adapt to get the most out of my archtop playing experience?

That is a stunning guitar
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  #12  
Old 05-04-2018, 08:14 AM
THart THart is offline
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That is a stunning guitar
You think that ones nice? The Bitterroot was on Webers entry level. You should check out the two on the Montana Lutherie site. Tried a different pick last night. Lost the one I had been using. The new one is a 1.5mm plek with a tear drop shape. I did like it. The other pick I had been using was lighter but I really don't even know what it was. I don't have a lot of picks around, only a few for my mandolin & a few I've picked up here & there (freebies). It's all above my level of playing anyway but it's the journey not the destination, right? Hoping those Mel Bay books show up soon to see if I can pick up something out of them.
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Old 05-04-2018, 09:17 AM
urlkonig urlkonig is offline
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A thick/stiff pick really brings out the best in archtops -- A Bluechip will tame some of the brightness (if that's the tone you're looking for); Wegens are also good, and less expensive. I use both, depending which of my Archtops I'm playing ('37 Epi Broadway, Trenier Excel)
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