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  #61  
Old 07-22-2010, 11:49 PM
Rick Turner Rick Turner is offline
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I guess I'm the only one here with both guitar setup experience and a history in designing and manufacturing carbon fiber instrument parts...necks.

A) The complaint about low saddle height is legit. The neck angle is wrong, and kicked back a bit it would still allow the ultra low action that some like as well as offering the option of playing with higher action. This is like only allowing the driver's seat of a car to work for very short to medium short people...and not providing for anyone over 5'10". You can have it all with the right design.

B) Yes, the mold could be tweaked

OR

C) The neck could be pulled back, slightly warping the body when the top is put on. Slightly warping the body is how Spanish guitar makers tweak the neck angle when building in the traditional style...they do it when gluing on the back rather than the top, but the net effect is the same. The CA's have a glued-on top; this trick would work just fine.

D) The need for a truss rod has nothing to do with neck strength or stiffness and everything to do with adjusting neck relief to each player's taste. Once again, I'll make the automobile analogy. Would you buy a car with a non-adjustable driver's seat?

E) Hartley will bring a very disciplined workforce, and efficient factory, and deep pockets to this project. He cannot do much, though, about the raw materials costs which are quite high. He's also in the business to make money and he won't sell guitars as a loss leader to get market share. He'd probably also like to have the technology to make carbon fiber necks for his electrics. Good move on his part. He's also been an incredibly staunch supporter of independent music stores and backs his dealers like nobody in the biz.
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  #62  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:02 AM
benplaut benplaut is offline
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I'm the happy owner of an OX, with proper neck relief and action, and I'm with Larry on this one.
The mold for the Cargo just isn't quite right on neck angle, with the 3 that I've played. Personally, I don't mind the relief; it's pretty perfect with Custom Lights, but I see that it is a problem with higher gauge strings. Would a truss rod work on a one-peice body and neck? The neck seems pretty darn stiff and hard to bend.

tldr; it works well for me, I still think they should try and fix Larry's suggestions.

Good luck, Peavey. It's a good brand that made good, unique guitars; keep it up.
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  #63  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:13 AM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
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Originally Posted by Rick Turner View Post
.....He's also been an incredibly staunch supporter of independent music stores and backs his dealers like nobody in the biz.
In and of itself a great reason to wish him success.
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  #64  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Turner View Post
D) The need for a truss rod has nothing to do with neck strength or stiffness and everything to do with adjusting neck relief to each player's taste. Once again, I'll make the automobile analogy. Would you buy a car with a non-adjustable driver's seat?
Yes yes YES! That is the point.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's just a question of engineering the neck to be (relatively) weak enough that a truss rod can function. It will still be more stable than wood and impervious to changes in humidity and temperature (within reason). I don't see any reason why it would result in any significant increase in tooling or production costs.

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  #65  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Turner View Post
The complaint about low saddle height is legit. The neck angle is wrong, and kicked back a bit it would still allow the ultra low action that some like as well as offering the option of playing with higher action. This is like only allowing the driver's seat of a car to work for very short to medium short people...and not providing for anyone over 5'10". You can have it all with the right design.
Hypothetically, if the string height was 1/2" from the sound board, and the neck angle was at 89* to the body (or whatever theoretical perfection would be), and the saddle height was still low, would you still diagnose the problem as "wrong neck angle?"
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  #66  
Old 07-23-2010, 05:07 AM
Cass Sumrall Cass Sumrall is offline
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[QUOTE=Larry Pattis;2293156]The physics of string vibration does not alter from wood guitar to non-wood guitars. A string that can slide around on the top of the saddle due to extremely low break-angle is simply not optimal for vibration.

You left out of my quote the part where I suggested ramping the bridge to stop the string slipage by increasing the break angle - did you try that?
I have on several CA guitars & it worked for me.




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...oh, and in case I forgot to mention this earlier, I hope they think about adding an adjustable truss-rod.

I don't think it is as simple as just adding a truss rod - with this type construction it is quite different than with wood guitars & I think they knew what they were doing. But even with wood guitars, to insist a guitar have an adjustable truss rod eliminates an awfull lot of great vintage guitars from your world. I once took that position until I discovered pre-war Martins.

Last edited by Cass Sumrall; 07-23-2010 at 06:20 AM.
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  #67  
Old 07-23-2010, 05:49 AM
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Way to go Peavey!
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  #68  
Old 07-23-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimey View Post
One of the things you have to remember is the guitars carbon.
I forget what the word is that describes the behavour of the fibers in carbon fiber, I think it's isotropic. Basically once the fibers have been impregnated with eopxy or what ever they use, the fibers will always want to return to their original position or alignment.
This is why carbon is so popular for top of the line bicycles, tennis rackets, paddles etc. when the fiber bends it has this natural need to return to the original fiber alignment, so the fibers create or absorbs energy based on the application.
With a monocoque design like the Cargo, it would be difficult to stop the fibers trying to return to their original position after trying to adjust a neck. Based the Cargos current design a truss rod would probably result in cracks or damage around the rod.
The guitar and neck would have to be separate units.
For myself I took a little off of the saddle and put medium strings on the guitar, nice action , no buzz and an instrument I don't have to worry about.
There's no doubt in my mind a cargo with a truss rod would require twice the tooling, molds for neck and body, some kind of attachment which would not be as strong as the one piece design. More labour, two layups, more assembly time ( labour ) all of a sudden my reasonably priced camp fire , trash it, beat of the crowds guitar is going to cost 2 grand.
For my wood instruments I want the full ability to change the setup and fine tune the instrument.
For my Cargo, the less things I have to worry about, the less things can move, the less care I have to give the instrument, the better.
You said it better than I did.
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  #69  
Old 07-23-2010, 09:31 AM
jricc jricc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
Perhaps they will start off by building guitars with proper neck angles (for correct saddle height above the bridge at proper set-up specs), and add adjustable truss-rods...

Definitely need adjustable truss rods.
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  #70  
Old 07-23-2010, 09:35 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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As the owner of three Cargos (all RT finish, no factory electronics), I consider myself VERY fortunate that with Marty's (at The Podium) setup, all three instruments are perfect for me.

However, I do understand the point that Larry P is making and can see where attending to those issues would make the Cargo a better fit for more players. I don't claim to know anything about building guitars and/or working with carbon fiber, but Larry's posts here definitely explain my own similar experiences with setup on some of the wood instruments I have owned over the years. I never knew about this stuff when I had guitars with similar issues.

By the way, Larry Pattis' Nonpariel is one of the most beautiful solo fingerstyle pieces I have ever heard. That is off-topic, but needed to be said.

Regards,

Tony
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  #71  
Old 07-23-2010, 10:24 AM
MyGibsonF5 MyGibsonF5 is offline
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Talking Great Move Peavey

Thanks Peavey!!!!!!

CA Guitars were just too good to go down. I have a great sounding '07 CA Bluegrass Standard - no electronics and no truss rod and I don't want either. For bluegrass, the guitar is great just like it is.

Sure hope Peavey can recall the guys who understood carbon fiber technology. There is much more science to it than just pouring resin into a mold.

I wonder if Peavey will honor any warantee work on pre-Peavey CA's?

Bryce
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  #72  
Old 07-23-2010, 10:43 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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I doubt that many of the workers will be in a position to get up and move. There I am sure a learning curve but I am sure Peavey will work it would. Their guitar painter that did wood looking sunburst I think was a real artist. It will be interest to see what they produce.
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  #73  
Old 07-23-2010, 10:49 AM
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Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyGibsonF5 View Post
There is much more science to it than just pouring resin into a mold.
You're right.

The epoxy-laden carbon fiber material is laid out over the outside of the mold.




P.S. Thanks, Rick.

(and thanks, Tony)
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  #74  
Old 07-23-2010, 11:29 AM
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Default is it Peavey? then please fix the title

If it IS Peavey Electronics Corporation

can someone fix the title of the thread so that this will turn up properly in search engines?

Thanks!

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Just got notice that CA has in fact been purchased by Peavy Electronics Corporation and they will resume the manufacture of CA guitars in their Meridian facility. More to come as soon as I get the info.
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  #75  
Old 07-23-2010, 11:30 AM
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