A stupid incident

[patticake]

okay, here ya go.

nate at west l.a. guitar center treats us right, and as far as i can see, he treats all his customers well. the prices there are very good - often lower than online - and he generally works hard to make sure you get what you wanted. he's changed strings for me on guitars so i could try 'em out, and looks things up when he doesn't have the answers.

we have gotten some excellent deals at other l.a. area guitar centers, and they often have reasonable prices on various used instruments and amps.

Originally Posted by MikeTX

Wow - all this and no mention of the Guitar Center... :-)

[MikeyBWindsurfe]

Originally Posted by RonS

This happens to me, but I'm not the customer. I definitely side with the owner of store A.

Let me tell you a story...

A customer calls and wants a price on one of my products and I give him a verbal quote. A few days later he calls and asks for it in writing. Something sounded fishy so I say to him “You are going to show this quote to my competitor.”

The silence on the phone was deafening.

“I’ll tell you what, you get in writing from him that he will beat my price and I will give you a price that will knock your socks off”

He tells me he will get back to me in a couple of days.

Sure enough he comes in and shows me the confirmation and with a big smile I hand over a quote with a number that was 40% of my normal price.

The guy laughs and says thanks. I tell him don’t bother coming back here again.

About two hours later I get a call from my competitor and he was screaming mad!
It was great!

Excellent!!!

[Q33]

Wow, I can't believe some of these responses. First off, Im surprised it took so long for someone to mention that not all guitars are the same, even the same model. Anyways...

In my opinion, whether or not what you did was right or wrong is in the quote "I also told him I would come to his store" If you verbally told Store A you would buy that guitar from them at the quoted price, then you should have upheld your end of the bargain. That is negotiating in good faith. How would you have felt the two of you agreed on a price, you went down there, and he tried to sell it to you at a higher price?

However, if you just said you would stop by their store without actually agreeing to buy the guitar, then what you did was absolutely fine. I can't believe there are so many people here who think that the seller is apparently entitled to a buyer who doesnt shop around. Thats absolutely ridiculous. If you are going to pit stores against each other, then be prepared to lose the relationships with them, but in no way at all should you feel guilty. I understand why Store A wouldnt give you a quote, but he was not justified in being rude (unless you made that verbal contract of buying the guitar). All those people talking about service and personal help, have to realize thats just another commodity. If that service is worth it to you, you will be willing to pay slightly more.

[mmapags]

I didn't recall anyone saying that the seller was entitled to a buyer that doesn't shop around. I'm pretty sure all sellers assume that buyers have done that, including this one. Also, you are correct that service is another commodity. So as I said in my post, determine what the total value proposition is and decide. But don't expect the sellers to do your work for you or to facilitate you driving someone else's price down! If you are just a bottom feeder who places no value on service or a relationship, that's fine. But it's dumb and incredibly naive to expect a seller to make that easy for you!

In dealing with the people I buy from whether it's guitars or materials for my business, I evaluate the total value proposition and do what is in my own best interests. If I have a prefered supplier who has earned my trust and their price is out of line, I discuss that with them and give them the opportunity to close the gap, if they feel like that what they's like to do and it's in thier best interest. I'll pay them a little more because I know I'll get more value from them. But I won't take what they give me and go back to other supplier. I think that way of working lacks ethics and quite frankly stinks. Do your homework and make your best decision. Simple as that. The market is easier than ever to research in minutes with the internet for pretty much any item in common use in the civilized world!! That being said, a guitar is not just a guitar. Each one is it's own and price is only one factor. All the more reason for the OP to reconsider his original strategy!

[Wade Hampton]

It's interesting to me to read this thread and to see how many of the guitar builders and business owners have agreed with me and thought that an apology is called for, while so many manly, two-fisted bargain hunters out there evidently consider an apology to be a sign of unbelievable weakness.

I suggest an apology is in order not because the original poster was daring to seek a better price elsewhere, but because he now feels uncomfortable even walking into the store. That indicates to me that he does feel that he's transgressed.

It's a transgression on the level of a social faux pas or screwup, not a crime against nature. And while an apology isn't strictly necessary, if he doesn't do something to clear the air he's going to feel like a thief in the night whenever he steps through the door.

If he does the "manly, self-righteous" thing here and refuses to apologize and refuses to admit that he's done anything the slightest bit out of line, he hobbles himself in any future transactions with that store. It's just stupid to leave that hanging over his head for no good reason except on the advice of some folks tapping away on their computers eight or ten time zones away on the other side of the planet.

All this is entirely aside from whether he decides to buy the guitar from Store A, Store B or some other store not yet assigned a letter of the alphabet...

In short, Inkbiegel, I think you should visit Store A in person, play the guitars that are onhand, and then introduce yourself to the owner and apologize for the awkward way in which you handled your initial contacts.

Being gracious and recognizing that you did, in fact, use up some of this gentleman's time, is the best thing you can do. (Anyone who thinks that "a few e-mails" don't require considerable time and effort is kidding himself. Writing business-oriented e-mails EATS time....)

I'm not suggesting a total self-abasement sort of an apology, but rather a simple acknowledgement that it was unfortunate and you learned not to do that again ought to suffice perfectly well.

Then proceed from there. Maybe you'll buy the guitar from him, maybe you won't. But at least you'll be starting again from the closest thing to a clean slate as you can.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by RonS

You need to re-read my first post

Ron- I want to start by saying that I agree with your perspective. Nobody is obligated to make themself a stocking horse for somebody else's deal.

I'm interpreting "telling the customer not to come back" to mean that you had no plans to fill the order.

I am in marketing for a company that sells products to other businesses, too. I am almost never surprised at the depths to which our competitors and customers will stoop to squeeze a few extra pennies out of us. In the end, they usually burn themselves anyway so it all works out. However, your story sounds to me like price fixing, and it sounds more than a little illegal. All I took from it is that an unethical customer and two unethical sales people cheated each other into a deal that nobody was happy with. I can think of more than a few reps that we've fired for doing business this way.
I'm not trying to read you the riot act; I do sympathize with you in being upset about your customer trying to screw you. I just don't think that defrauding the competitor was a smart response, and it could end up backfiring on you.

To the OP- the vast majority of sales people are not out to screw you. They do want to help, and they do want you to be happy with your purchase. They make their living by helping you, not screwing you. If you treat them like dirt as some of the other forum members have suggested, you probably won't get a lot of help finding the guitar you want.

[MikeTX]

Hey Pat,

I was just wisecracking - I buy MOST things from GC - and anything major from one specific guy that I trust 100%, for more than 15 years. I was just thinking that these type passionate discussions often involve GC...

Best, Mike

[zb0430]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

Ron- I want to start by saying that I agree with your perspective. Nobody is obligated to make themself a stocking horse for somebody else's deal.

I'm interpreting "telling the customer not to come back" to mean that you had no plans to fill the order.

I am in marketing for a company that sells products to other businesses, too. I am almost never surprised at the depths to which our competitors and customers will stoop to squeeze a few extra pennies out of us. In the end, they usually burn themselves anyway so it all works out. However, your story sounds to me like price fixing, and it sounds more than a little illegal. All I took from it is that an unethical customer and two unethical sales people cheated each other into a deal that nobody was happy with. I can think of more than a few reps that we've fired for doing business this way.
I'm not trying to read you the riot act; I do sympathize with you in being upset about your customer trying to screw you. I just don't think that defrauding the competitor was a smart response, and it could end up backfiring on you.

To the OP- the vast majority of sales people are not out to screw you. They do want to help, and they do want you to be happy with your purchase. They make their living by helping you, not screwing you. If you treat them like dirt as some of the other forum members have suggested, you probably won't get a lot of help finding the guitar you want.

Very good response. Agreed fully. On both aspects.

Threads like these are a funny breed. You find quickly who are the people you'd consider doing business with, and those that you wouldn't touch with a 20' pole.

[esteso47]

Yeah, I've done that same thing a few times...... used someone to get info about a product, decide what I wanted and then bought it online cheaper. A few years ago I got caught at it. I don't quite remember how ATM. But the sales guy came up to me and confronted me on how I'd wasted his time.

Really read me the riot act.

He was absolutely right too.

I admitted what I was doing and apologized to him and told him that I would like to continue a relationship with him on a new footing based on mutual respect. We became fast friends and did many deals after that. Value is NOT exactly the same as hard costs.

Human relationships are priceless.

Michael Telle
Vagabond Music

[Q33]

Originally Posted by mmapags

But don't expect the sellers to do your work for you or to facilitate you driving someone else's price down! If you are just a bottom feeder who places no value on service or a relationship, that's fine. But it's dumb and incredibly naive to expect a seller to make that easy for you!

I think we are in agreement on this...of course it was naive to expect the seller to make it easy for him. But does this justify the seller being rude? I don't think so. The seller should have politely said "no" and if the seller didn't want to continue any transactions, tell him the offer is no longer valid. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by mmapags

In dealing with the people I buy from whether it's guitars or materials for my business, I evaluate the total value proposition and do what is in my own best interests. If I have a prefered supplier who has earned my trust and their price is out of line, I discuss that with them and give them the opportunity to close the gap, if they feel like that what they's like to do and it's in thier best interest. I'll pay them a little more because I know I'll get more value from them.

This all sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by mmapags

But I won't take what they give me and go back to other supplier. I think that way of working lacks ethics and quite frankly stinks. Do your homework and make your best decision. Simple as that.

You have a specific situation. You state that you are giving them an opportunity to close the gap...this implies that you told them what you want it for and if they can meet it, you will buy it. You imply an agreement that you will buy it if they can come down to your price point. Yes, in this case, its bad faith if you then go and use it to get a competitor to go lower, as you made an informal agreement.

However, I don't think this was the OPs case. Store A gave him their best offer. As far as I can tell, the OP didnt tell them a price he would buy it at. As far as I'm concerned, the OP WAS just doing his homework. And I don't buy just doing online HW. Multiple times I've gone into shops, asked for their best offer, and they would START off at a price lower then I could find online. I go into shops, ask for their best offers, and see if other competitors can beat it. To me, all of it is still doing HW.

Haven't you guys bought cars before? When I bought my car, I literally called about 10 dealers. I asked 1 dealership for their best offer, and then called the next seeing if they could beat it. Everytime I got a lower offer, I would reset the list and call all of them again to see if anyone could beat the new lowest offer. I stopped after the other 9 dealerships couldn't beat one dealership's lowest offer. I guess Im unethical or a bottomfeeder?

Originally Posted by esteso47

Yeah, I've done that same thing a few times...... used someone to get info about a product, decide what I wanted and then bought it online cheaper. A few years ago I got caught at it. I don't quite remember how ATM. But the sales guy came up to me and confronted me on how I'd wasted his time.

Yeah, thats kinda a thing to do...but it would have been (in my opinion) completely acceptable if you told the salesman what you can get it for online, and given him the opportunity to match the price. Its one thing to go in, expect service with absolutely no intent of buying from them. Its a completely separate thing to go in, get service, and give them and opportunity to earn your money.

[Glennwillow]

I, too, like Wade, find the responses here interesting...

One thing for sure -- we deeply value how we spend our money because we have worked hard for it and we've traded a piece of our lives (our time) for it. So it's personal. For a business owner, having someone unfairly use our time and resources against us to take away a modicum of profit (profit by which we survive and support our families) is also HIGHLY personal and deeply important.

It's also interesting to see that with some life experiences some people do change their approach. Certainly we all have different formulas on which to base our value and purchasing decisions. I understand that we are all different.

For myself and my own business decisions, I tend to move away from customers who buy only on price. For a business owner, there is very little if any profit in that market approach. I certainly believe in treating all customers (or anyone) with courtesy and respect, but I don't believe in giving away the farm, either. As I said, profit is absolutely necessary for survival.

As someone has already noted, we are not all going to agree on what's fair in shopping for and buying a guitar. Business owners need to learn how to attract customers with the right pricing and value for their services, and they need to protect their investments and profit margins without alienating customers. In this economy, the frustration and fear levels are very high making this approach an even harder challenge.

Regards, Glenn

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Q33

...but it would have been (in my opinion) completely acceptable if you told the salesman what you can get it for online, and given him the opportunity to match the price. Its one thing to go in, expect service with absolutely no intent of buying from them. Its a completely separate thing to go in, get service, and give them and opportunity to earn your money.

The thing is, everyone in the music business knows what the cost of an item is online. They all have computers and Internet connections, too.

- Glenn

[Aaron Smith]

Nice post Glenn- very well stated.

[Q33]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

The thing is, everyone in the music business knows what the cost of an item is online. They all have computers and Internet connections, too.

- Glenn

Not 100% sure where you're going with this. I've gone into shops and discussed products. When I found something I liked, told them the price I could get it for online. They flat out told me they couldn't match online prices because they were a smaller shop. At that point, its my choice if I want to buy from them or not for that particular item. I don't think its unethical or bad to be discussing products with salesmen, until I realize that I will not be buying from them. If I do get to that point, and I know 100% that I won't be buying from them, it would stink to keep wasting their time. Like I said, its one thing to be shopping around and doing HW, but its another to go into the shop with 0 intention of buying anything.

[schooner]

I am completely in Wade's camp on this one.

People who buy guitars based upon price alone frequently get a good price and not much else. I have always been interested in building long term relationships with people I do business with. Leaving a shop with the impression that you have used them to price shop is not a good first step in relationship building.

The OP says that the first store quoted a good price and offerred other non-economic reasons for buying there. What's not to like? Treat this store decently and they will take care of you in the long run. It's okay for them to make a little dough. (I am assuming here that there is no appreciable difference in tone).

I would make one suggestion. Instead of apologizing, tell the owner of the first store that you intended no offense and that you had not fully considered the after market value his store offers. He will be pleased that you appreciate his commitment to the product and to you and he will act on those impulses in the future.

Make a friend and enjoy the guitar.