The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-15-2017, 12:51 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,687
Default Recording in different rooms with a Zoom

TBMan mentioned having to record in an 8x8 room, which got me thinking about the impact of rooms on sound, and how having a small portable recorder lets us move around and experiment with different rooms and the effect they have. So I did a very quick experiment, recording a short clip (an Al Petteway segment, for Barry!) in 3 different rooms, using the Zoom H6 with internal mics. The rooms:
  • Laundry room: 6x9, 8 foot ceilings, obvious "untreated". I just plopped the Zoom H6 on a washing machine, pulled up a chair and recorded (See photo below)
  • Living room: maybe 12x15, with high ceilings. No room treatment, hard walls, carpet, open to adjoining rooms with tile floors. I just sat the zoom on an end-table and sat in the chair beside it. See photo below
  • Studio: I could have put the recorder on a stand and used an optimal place in the room, but instead just laid the recorder on the desk, sat in front and recorded. This room is at least treated. I had help on this one, see my engineer in the photo. He actually followed me from room to room as I did this, but he was camera shy in the other rooms.

Here's the results, no major editing, I just tried to match levels and added a touch of reverb. Note that because I was being so haphazard about the process - just finding a place I could lay the recorder near the guitar, mic placement varies quite a bit, which plays another role in differences, besides the sound of the room.

In sequence: laundry room, living room, treated studio:



The photos are out of order (studio first, then laundry room, then living room)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Studio.jpg (251.4 KB, 131 views)
File Type: jpg Laundry.jpg (168.4 KB, 128 views)
File Type: jpg LivingRoomm.jpg (244.2 KB, 124 views)
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-15-2017, 01:12 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 24,468
Default

Nice comparison Doug!

I can hear a dramatic difference between the laundry room and the living room, then a more subtle difference between the living room and studio. The studio was the most well rounded recording. The Zoom H6 does a nice job.
__________________
Barry

Originals:
Textures

Four to Three

Touched By Light

Covers:
Star of the County Down
{Arr. Stephen Wake}

The Foggy Dew
{Arr. Jim Tozier}

My tunes and videos on Reverbnation

Avalon L2-320C, Larrivee OM-05, Guild D-120c, Gibson, Martin
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-15-2017, 02:54 PM
KevWind KevWind is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 11,102
Default

Ha ! love the way the cat appears to be watching the mouse.

I see the M7 is on the "Large Hall" do you like that for solo acoustic ?
__________________
" Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." Albert Einstein
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...


KevWind at Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-15-2017, 03:28 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,512
Default

Take advantage of cardioid mike directionality having mikes closer to but pointing away from one of the room's shorter walls (rectangular room shape).
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-15-2017, 03:36 PM
Acoustic_Stevo Acoustic_Stevo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gateshead UK
Posts: 193
Default

To be honest, Doug, I'd be happy with any of those results.
The studio recording sounds best, with a wider range of frequencies, but only because your hearing all 3 together. The laundry room sounds good, but then the living room sounds warmer and more together, but the studio has the living room warmth with more range (if that makes sense).
I always record with my Zoom H5 in my daughters room, with duvets hanging, acting as homemade room treatment, but I think I'll do a tour of the house and do a comparison recording.
Thanks Doug.
__________________
Lowden 012c - 1994 - Spruce/Mahogany
Rory Gallagher relic Strat - 2012
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-15-2017, 03:49 PM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 3,418
Default

Doug, I remember years ago your telling me about a conversation with Joe Weed http://www.joeweed.com/studiopages/highlandstudio.htm where he said recording quality was something like 90 percent performance, 5 percent mic placement, 3 percent instrument, and 2 percent everything else (mic choice, preamps, a/d converters, etc. etc.)

The trouble with your demos is that the 90 percent is so darned good the rest doesn't matter, at least as long as the mics are pointed at the guitar.

Fran
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-15-2017, 04:08 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Take advantage of cardioid mike directionality having mikes closer to but pointing away from one of the room's shorter walls (rectangular room shape).
Better results could easily be done with attention to mic placement for sure. For this exercise, mic placement was limited to "where's a flat surface I can lay the recorder on?". I didn't even audition how it sounded. Lay it down, aim toward me, press record, play.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-15-2017, 04:14 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Ha ! love the way the cat appears to be watching the mouse.

I see the M7 is on the "Large Hall" do you like that for solo acoustic ?
He likes to lay on my mouse. Makes it a bit hard to get things done....

I go back and forth on the Bricasti settings. The Large Hall can be a bit too much for some things, but I do use it a lot, mixed in low. I have that on my"speed dial" knobs, along with a couple of ambiance settings, Studio B, and D, and "Guitar Room" - which is probably just that I'm suggestable, but it does seem to sound nice on guitar.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-15-2017, 04:18 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran Guidry View Post
Doug, I remember years ago your telling me about a conversation with Joe Weed http://www.joeweed.com/studiopages/highlandstudio.htm where he said recording quality was something like 90 percent performance, 5 percent mic placement, 3 percent instrument, and 2 percent everything else (mic choice, preamps, a/d converters, etc. etc.)

The trouble with your demos is that the 90 percent is so darned good the rest doesn't matter, at least as long as the mics are pointed at the guitar.

Fran
Thanks for the kind words. I do find that in most cases, when I'm not liking a recording, it's not the gear, it's me - if I work on playing better, somehow the mics start doing their part better, too.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-15-2017, 05:36 PM
Trevor B. Trevor B. is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Posts: 1,028
Default

For presence, clarity and detail the studio wins big time for me. I'm guessing the cat's in the same camp.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-15-2017, 06:23 PM
Chin music Chin music is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 124
Default

Great post. It concerns me though that I can hear practically zero difference between all three recordings with a set of AKG MKii headphones on. I'm 48 years old and have definitely noticed my hearing degrade in the last 3 or 4 years.

They all sound good to me.
__________________
Guild D25 (1973)
Guild GAD m120e (2013)
Taylor 324 (2014)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-15-2017, 06:39 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,512
Default

All sound pretty similar. However that is not too surprising with x-y miking. Also the closer the miking to the guitar the less difference to be expected.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-15-2017, 10:26 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
All sound pretty similar. However that is not too surprising with x-y miking. Also the closer the miking to the guitar the less difference to be expected.
I wouldn't use the Laundry Room take, the guitar's too harsh sounding, but it could probably be tamed down a bit with some EQ. The close micing is of course the key if you don't have a good acoustical room. It may not be ideal for all desired sounds, but it works. I actually find spaced pairs to be more forgiving than XY - spaced pairs are what I use for my you tube videos, which are also shot in an untreated room, and I think some of the room sound gets lost in the more spacious sound of the spaced pairs. But of course, it all varies.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-15-2017, 11:13 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I wouldn't use the Laundry Room take, the guitar's too harsh sounding, but it could probably be tamed down a bit with some EQ. The close micing is of course the key if you don't have a good acoustical room. It may not be ideal for all desired sounds, but it works. I actually find spaced pairs to be more forgiving than XY - spaced pairs are what I use for my you tube videos, which are also shot in an untreated room, and I think some of the room sound gets lost in the more spacious sound of the spaced pairs. But of course, it all varies.
Basically I just don't like the sound of X-Y acoustic guitar miking in general so it's hard for me to pick a winner. XY starts off phasey so I guess the additional
deleterious effects of certain room reflection is less apparent.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-15-2017, 11:53 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Basically I just don't like the sound of X-Y acoustic guitar miking in general so it's hard for me to pick a winner. XY starts off phasey so I guess the additional
deleterious effects of certain room reflection is less apparent.
I know you're not a fan of XY, but maybe "phasey" isn't the right word? XY is quite phase coherent, it can't be "phasey". Curious what you hear with XY. I know you've discussed the effect of mono - which I think may actually come from listening to mono on stereo speakers - I hear that, too - reflections. But XY sounds fine to me, I especially love the sound of a stereo mic, preferably in MS, but XY is fine, where the stereo image can be quite remarkable (maybe due to the optimal and precise capsule placement?). One disappointment I have with the Zoom H6 is that it comes with an MS mic module, which is basically unusable due to self-noise. I really wanted that to work. The XY module is fine, tho.

in any case, this wasn't intended to pick a winner (I don't think it's much of a contest - I'll take my treated room any day). I just thought it'd be interesting to demo the impact of different room acoustics as well as see how a simple recorder with cheap built-in mics worked in non-optimal environments.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=