The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 10-20-2013, 03:35 PM
Will Kirk Will Kirk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhad View Post
Hi guys

I followed Dough's advice:

I couldn't turn off the ventilation system (for some strange reason my wife thinks that is more important than my recordings!!

There is a noise reduction system built in Garageband but frankly it sucks.

Moving the mic closer to the guitar and playing louder as Dough suggested did bring it all to a bearable level (0 db on the mic and by the way turning off the low cut base filter did have a positive impact. Input level -15db).

I just put up a recording on Youtube with the current situation. There is a little air in there but I guess you should be happy with this considering the price of the mic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjsKoFnJNQQ

I still didn't get what was meant by "taking out" the pad on a mic? is that like another way of saying choosing it or not choosing it?

Soon the Lowden with the LR Baggs Lyric and the M1 combined will arrive. I am hoping that would sound awesome when directly plugged into the Apogee.

Thank you so much you all!

Dough we are so privileged to have you in this forum.
The recording is ok, I hear the hiss when you stop playing the guitar.

What it sounds more like to me is similar to what happens when you put reverb before a compressor in an electric guitar's signal chain, the reverb is there but the compressor boosts both the signal that you don't want (the background noise) and such.

It sounds like what little background noise is there is being made much more obnoxious by the reverb, because the reverb is being added to everything thus bringing it more to the ear's attention. does that make sense?

Try recording it without any reverb and see if the problem persists, if it disappears then there you go. But if it's still present then we'll go from there.

An example, here's an old video of mine that I did about 2 years back. There is some background noise from being outside, however I didn't add any reverb to the recording, if I added reverb the background noise would be almost unbearable because the reverb would be present even on the noise of the bugs in the trees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=einfMMYMiVo

Last edited by Will Kirk; 10-20-2013 at 03:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-20-2013, 03:50 PM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: On the Mass/NH border
Posts: 5,664
Default

I too heard more hiss during the quiet parts, indicating compression is kicking in. Can't see where the mic is - how far away from the guitar do you have it placed? There's no set rule, but generally 6-12" from the guitar is a good starting place - gives you more volume from the guitar, less 'room'.
__________________
Mike

My music: https://mikebirchmusic.bandcamp.com

2017 Taylor 114ce-N
2012 Taylor 310ce
2011 Fender CD140SCE
Ibanez 12 string a/e
73 Epiphone 6830E 6 string (made in 71?)

72 Fender Telecaster
Epiphone Dot Studio
Epiphone LP Jr
Chinese Strat clone ($25!)

Kala baritone ukulele
Seagull 'Merlin'
Washburn Mandolin
Luna 'tatoo' a/e ukulele
antique banjolin
Squire J bass
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-20-2013, 03:51 PM
Farhad Farhad is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Kirk View Post
The recording is ok, I hear the hiss when you stop playing the guitar.

What it sounds more like to me is similar to what happens when you put reverb before a compressor in an electric guitar's signal chain, the reverb is there but the compressor boosts both the signal that you don't want (the background noise) and such.

It sounds like what little background noise is there is being made much more obnoxious by the reverb, because the reverb is being added to everything thus bringing it more to the ear's attention. does that make sense?

Try recording it without any reverb and see if the problem persists, if it disappears then there you go. But if it's still present then we'll go from there.

An example, here's an old video of mine that I did about 2 years back. There is some background noise from being outside, however I didn't add any reverb to the recording, if I added reverb the background noise would be almost unbearable because the reverb would be present even on the noise of the bugs in the trees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=einfMMYMiVo
Thanks for sharing your video clip. I hear that it is a similar kind of thing in the background.

I did try that with the reverb after I read your input. I must say that the reverb did not affect the noise at all. However, taking the compression away certainly did reduce it a bit more.

Maybe the software effects cause problem in this respect. Perhaps using an external preamp/effect might be better (eg TC electronic G-natural or equivalent)?
__________________
-----------------

The greatness of a nation is reflected in how they treat their animal life and nature.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Frankensmile/videos

Guitars:

Milestones of music Ramirez classical
Journey carbonfiber travel guitar
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-20-2013, 04:01 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhad View Post
I couldn't turn off the ventilation system (for some strange reason my wife thinks that is more important than my recordings!!
Nice playing! Yeah, I just hear the sound of the room. I just wait till my wife's out somewhere and turn everything off. I've even gone as far as to throw all the breakers except for the ones to my studio room. It's amazing how quiet it gets, all those little house-hold noises add up!

You're also suffering compared to pro-quality recordings from the room acoustics. You might try even closer mic placement - when you don't have "recording studio" acoustics, I'd suggest trying maybe 8 inches from the guitar to start with. That will reduce the noise and get you a more direct sound with less "room". It takes great acoustics to be able to record from a few feet away and not have the room mess up the sound.

The noise is especially noticeable on the low end. You could do a high pass filter (low cut) and improve it somewhat. I made a stab at removing the noise in iZotope, and it got rid of a lot of it, but then you can really hear the slappy room acoustics, so I'm not sure it's worthwhile.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-20-2013, 04:03 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBmusic View Post
I too heard more hiss during the quiet parts, indicating compression is kicking in.
Good catch - I'd turn off the compression. It's not your friend on solo acoustic most of the time, and definitely not when there's background noise.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-20-2013, 04:03 PM
Farhad Farhad is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBmusic View Post
I too heard more hiss during the quiet parts, indicating compression is kicking in. Can't see where the mic is - how far away from the guitar do you have it placed? There's no set rule, but generally 6-12" from the guitar is a good starting place - gives you more volume from the guitar, less 'room'.
The mic was about 25" from where I was standing. I did follow Dough's advice and moved it actually even closer than it was before.

The thing is when you play with percussive stuff you get peaks so I had to move away from the mic a bit to avoid that.

I am thinking maybe this SE X1 entry level mic just can't do better than this?
__________________
-----------------

The greatness of a nation is reflected in how they treat their animal life and nature.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Frankensmile/videos

Guitars:

Milestones of music Ramirez classical
Journey carbonfiber travel guitar
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-20-2013, 04:05 PM
Will Kirk Will Kirk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhad View Post
Thanks for sharing your video clip. I hear that it is a similar kind of thing in the background.

I did try that with the reverb after I read your input. I must say that the reverb did not affect the noise at all. However, taking the compression away certainly did reduce it a bit more.

Maybe the software effects cause problem in this respect. Perhaps using an external preamp/effect might be better (eg TC electronic G-natural or equivalent)?
I'm not surprised with the compression, glad it took care of some of it.

You might could try to record without any sort of external preamp? Just the guitar and the mic running into your interface with absolutely no effects at all. If you take away everything else is the sound still there?

Perhaps instead of looking at a bigger/better external preamp or even a software, maybe try recording dry and then experimenting with the completely dry recording to get where you want to be?

Like Doug said, compression is not your friend, so perhaps try stripping everything away, close mic'ing as Doug suggested, and then showing what your results are?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-20-2013, 04:16 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhad View Post
T
The thing is when you play with percussive stuff you get peaks so I had to move away from the mic a bit to avoid that.
Just set your levels to not overdrive on the percussive parts - turn the mic down. The quiet parts will be quieter, but that's how they are! And also you can adjust things in the mix if you want, to bring up the quiet parts, if you need to.

Quote:
I am thinking maybe this SE X1 entry level mic just can't do better than this?
I don't think the mic is the problem in this case. A better mic won't help with the difference in levels. A "better" mic might even be more sensitive and pick up more room noise and room sound. A more directional mic can sometimes help a tiny bit with bad acoustics - I usually use a hypercardiod for my you tube videos in an untreated room. Stereo might also help a little bit - it won't get rid of the noise or the room sound, but it does a better job of placing the listener in the room, and we can sometimes sort of mentally tune problems out. It won't sound like a studio recording, but it might sound more like the way we'd hear you playing if we were in the room, noise and all.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-20-2013, 04:51 PM
Farhad Farhad is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 257
Default

Ok. I tried the high pass filter (at least the one that comes with Garageband). It had a positive effect on the (lets call it) fffffffffffff. However, it makes the sound unnatural.

The biggest impact was the switch on the mic. 0 db increased the noise noticeably. I felt it was almost better to switch to -10 and bring the recording level up a bit more.

Recording blank was definitely a good idea. You can clearly hear how Eq (highs) and compression just really boost this noise as they are gradually added to the mix.

But the thing that really saved the day was just as simple as moving closer to the mic as Dough suggesgted. I hit the guitar pretty hard. It is really going to be a challenge to get this right without overloading the signal. Maybe the Lyric will be a fresh air to remedy this? I can also try the Miniflex. Funny thing I don't here this in this little sound comparison I did with Miniflex and DPA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFpxCITxT4c
__________________
-----------------

The greatness of a nation is reflected in how they treat their animal life and nature.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Frankensmile/videos

Guitars:

Milestones of music Ramirez classical
Journey carbonfiber travel guitar
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-20-2013, 05:19 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhad View Post
Maybe the Lyric will be a fresh air to remedy this? I can also try the Miniflex. Funny thing I don't here this in this little sound comparison I did with Miniflex and DPA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFpxCITxT4c
The pickup may work. They mostly never sound as good as a mic, but if you're fighting noise it may be a decent compromise. With the DPA and miniflex, you're *really* close, like 2 inches, right? So the guitar is just way louder relative to the noise. Or maybe the air wasn't running that day. When you use the miniflex, there's a low humm that sounds more like a ground problem.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-20-2013, 06:58 PM
YamaYairi YamaYairi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 2,452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhad View Post
Hi guys

I followed Dough's advice:

I couldn't turn off the ventilation system (for some strange reason my wife thinks that is more important than my recordings!!

There is a noise reduction system built in Garageband but frankly it sucks.

Moving the mic closer to the guitar and playing louder as Dough suggested did bring it all to a bearable level (0 db on the mic and by the way turning off the low cut base filter did have a positive impact. Input level -15db).

I just put up a recording on Youtube with the current situation. There is a little air in there but I guess you should be happy with this considering the price of the mic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjsKoFnJNQQ

I still didn't get what was meant by "taking out" the pad on a mic? is that like another way of saying choosing it or not choosing it?

Soon the Lowden with the LR Baggs Lyric and the M1 combined will arrive. I am hoping that would sound awesome when directly plugged into the Apogee.

Thank you so much you all!

Dough we are so privileged to have you in this forum.
On the body of the mic there is a switch that says 0dB -10dB. Set it to 0dB; that means no pad. The pad cuts the output of the mic by 10dB. that decreases the signal with respect to the noise floor of the preamp.
__________________
Warren

My website:
http://draudio56.wix.com/warren-bendler

"It's hard...calming the Beatle inside of me."
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-20-2013, 07:02 PM
YamaYairi YamaYairi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 2,452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farhad View Post
Ok. I tried the high pass filter (at least the one that comes with Garageband). It had a positive effect on the (lets call it) fffffffffffff. However, it makes the sound unnatural.

The biggest impact was the switch on the mic. 0 db increased the noise noticeably. I felt it was almost better to switch to -10 and bring the recording level up a bit more.

Recording blank was definitely a good idea. You can clearly hear how Eq (highs) and compression just really boost this noise as they are gradually added to the mix.

But the thing that really saved the day was just as simple as moving closer to the mic as Dough suggesgted. I hit the guitar pretty hard. It is really going to be a challenge to get this right without overloading the signal. Maybe the Lyric will be a fresh air to remedy this? I can also try the Miniflex. Funny thing I don't here this in this little sound comparison I did with Miniflex and DPA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFpxCITxT4c
Ok, if the -10dB pad decreases the noise, either the mic is picking up noise from the environment, or the mic itself is creating the noise. Try this. Wrap a heavy blanket or down comforter many times around the mic so it is swaddled in several layers. If the noise goes away, the mic is picking up noise from the environment and no mic will work in that room. If the noise is still there, the mic is defective or just junk.
__________________
Warren

My website:
http://draudio56.wix.com/warren-bendler

"It's hard...calming the Beatle inside of me."
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-20-2013, 07:05 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamaYairi View Post
Ok, if the -10dB pad decreases the noise, either the mic is picking up noise from the environment, or the mic itself is creating the noise.
That's a reasonable debugging approach, tho it's hard to cut out low frequency noise no matter what you do. But in this case, I think all you have to do is listen to the recording. That's not mic self-noise, that's environmental noise and distant mic placement.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-22-2013, 10:37 AM
YamaYairi YamaYairi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 2,452
Default

I missed the link to the recording. When I listened to it (great playing, BTW) I could hear the noise and it does sound like ambient room noise and the mic being too far away.
__________________
Warren

My website:
http://draudio56.wix.com/warren-bendler

"It's hard...calming the Beatle inside of me."
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-22-2013, 01:00 PM
Farhad Farhad is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamaYairi View Post
I missed the link to the recording. When I listened to it (great playing, BTW) I could hear the noise and it does sound like ambient room noise and the mic being too far away.
I am afraid I need to learn basics around home recording. I have been experimenting a bit more and it is quite so that brining the mic to closer proximity to the instrument does wonders. Also recording dry as Will suggested was a good approach which I think we should consider.

I sat the other night in the dark (when the family went to sleep) on a chair and just listened to the silence. After a while when the ears adapted to the silence I did indeed hear little noises all the way from the fridge and maybe other places. Funny thing, it is like when you are looking at the stars, where first your eyes have to adapt to the darkness before you see far distant objects. At any rate, I still think that the mic at this price range has a self noise which you just can't get around, specially if you as you called it take out the 10db pad.

I have really come to realize how difficult it really is to record acoustic instruments, specially if you are doing things where the sound dynamics change. Percussive stuff are really difficult to capture without overloading. As Doug suggested you can start at a level without overloading but then again the rest of the parts sound very distanced. Further boosting the output level brings the noise up.

But one thing is for sure and that is that I have always had way too much distance between the guitar and the microphone. I was actually quite content with the DPA sound directly to the sound card but the darn thing is just so much in the way. The guys at Miniflex are sending me a new model 2 as the old one had some defects. Adding a low level of K&K may just give a nice full sound (although not very representative of the acoustic sound of the instrument).
__________________
-----------------

The greatness of a nation is reflected in how they treat their animal life and nature.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Frankensmile/videos

Guitars:

Milestones of music Ramirez classical
Journey carbonfiber travel guitar
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=