The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:36 AM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Topanga Canyon, CA
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I hope people understand poor phasing is bad, I always try to minimize phase differences, using as many tools as I can.I've had people send me tracks that were badly out of phase, just as you said - it leaps out at you - but often they can't hear it, and sometimes can't hear the difference even if I can correct it.
Absolutely. My only point in this entire thread is that suggesting to someone new to recording that they should ignore the 3 to 1 rule should be expanded a bit to fit the realities of recording. I certainly adhere to the idea of experimenting and breaking the rules if it happens to work but not to the exclusion of some very real sonic liabilities. There's a boatload of examples here and on other forums that have obvious and sonically painful phase issues that, at very least, should suggest that someone out there both is ignoring the 3 to 1 rule and worse, not realizing it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
A good demo would be a nice thing to have tho. I think the thing I'd find interesting is some details of how you overcome the issues of maintaining the 3-1 rule while placing spaced pairs to get a good sound
Yes of course but you're lookin' at the wrong guy for solutions that specific. I certainly don't have em and I've been at this since the big bang. There is obviously no set solution and there's always, always gonna be tradeoffs. The guitar, the mic's, the player, the players right hand, the room, the floor, the humidity, the temperature are all major components as to just how much placement can be adjusted and ultimately how close you can get without phasing rearing it's ugly head....but then... you knew that

Naw my offer to post a clip was only because my credibility was challenged. There'll be no stereo mic revelations here. There again I'm certainly not opposed to slapping a couple of mics up and recording a bit as it is (believe it or not) what I do for a living
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:02 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,526
Default

One of the problems inherent in recording a guitar is that it is a wide sound source and somewhat different frequency content comes from different areas of it. Thus at any given point a microphone might be placed wavefronts coming from different areas of the guitar are out of phase with each other. Single mike guitar recordings sound thin, not like the guitar live. That may sit just fine in a mix but it is not so great by itself. You need two mikes and the ears operating in their phase space interpolations to get a fuller sound. A smaller area sound source, say a voice or trumpet, sounds much more natural recorded with a single mike. So with a guitar you start right off with this mishmash of wavefronts. Ultimately one is hoping for a unified sound that sounds like it is one full bodied instrument rather than a blend of two or more instruments.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

Last edited by rick-slo; 02-03-2013 at 12:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:08 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 6,692
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna View Post
Absolutely. My only point in this entire thread is that suggesting to someone new to recording that they should ignore the 3 to 1 rule should be expanded a bit to fit the realities of recording.
I think I'd rather suggest that they should pay attention to phase rather than some rule. Its just my experience, but for me, recording solo acoustic guitar, the 3-1 rule simply plays no role - for me - in micing the guitar. There are a dozen other issues, and getting decent phase correlation is one, but but I haven't found the 3-1 rule to be something that is useful in this case. A demo of how it matters and how you'd place mics to both sound good and obey 3-1, especially in a home (so-so acoustics) environment, would be great.
__________________
Doug Young
----------------
Music on Pandora
You Tube Channel
website: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com
Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
CDs: Closing Time, Laurel Mill
Pickup tests: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:47 PM
islandguitar's Avatar
islandguitar islandguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,500
Default

Thanks for this thread and perspective! Further to the point....what exactly am I listening for, or, not hearing ( single acoustic guitar recording) that tells me I have phase/mic issues? A thinner sound? Some kind of delay in what I'm hearing? Just a wave pattern which tells me there are issues which I need to correct? Doug's idea of a demo of this kind would be super!
Many thanks,
Fred
__________________
1993 Bourgeois JOM
1967 Martin D12-20
2007 Vines Artisan Grand Concert-Cedar/Quilted Sapele
2014 Doerr Legacy-LS Redwood/Cocobolo
2014 Bamburg FSC-Carpathian Spruce/Macassar Ebony


______________________________
www.soundcloud.com/island-guitar
http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/fredbartlett
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:52 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Topanga Canyon, CA
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I think I'd rather suggest that they should pay attention to phase rather than some rule. Its just my experience, but for me, recording solo acoustic guitar, the 3-1 rule simply plays no role - for me - in micing the guitar. There are a dozen other issues, and getting decent phase correlation is one, but but I haven't found the 3-1 rule to be something that is useful in this case. A demo of how it matters and how you'd place mics to both sound good and obey 3-1, especially in a home (so-so acoustics) environment, would be great.
Yep sure.. I'll absolutely concur with-in this context. But to some degree were talking about semantics here. As I recall and at least in part, my introduction to phasing issues was taught to me by way of the 3 to 1 rule particularly on single source stereo mic'ing. A starting point if you will. It was my pathway to the realization that if one wasn't careful with mic placement and technique, phasing trouble might not be far behind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
There are a dozen other issues, and getting decent phase correlation is one, but but I haven't found the 3-1 rule to be something that is useful in this case. A demo of how it matters and how you'd place mics to both sound good and obey 3-1, especially in a home (so-so acoustics) environment, would be great.

Well again (and I seem to be utterly inept at making my point here, which of course is a lifelong M.O. for me) I have not, have never and will never advocate one must follow the 3 to 1 rule and then "put up" with the short comings from there. Never. What I did advocate is as a beginner, and perhaps inferring the same learning process I went through, one should not either ignore the 3 to 1 principle. It is in fact a principle that is (for ANY engineer and for many applications, not just solo acoustic guitar) one that's of solid sonic merit. However, how I became the one who's the National mandatory 3 to 1 spokesperson I'll never know. That was never my intent and in re-reading my posts, in the off chance I took leave momentarily, there's really absolutely nothing there that would indicate as such.

If there is and I've missed it, and for my own gratification please point it out

Last edited by Joseph Hanna; 02-03-2013 at 02:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:06 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by islandguitar View Post
Thanks for this thread and perspective! Further to the point....what exactly am I listening for, or, not hearing ( single acoustic guitar recording) that tells me I have phase/mic issues? A thinner sound? Some kind of delay in what I'm hearing? Just a wave pattern which tells me there are issues which I need to correct? Doug's idea of a demo of this kind would be super!
Many thanks,
Fred
There is good phase variances and bad phase variances between the left and right channels. Perfectly in phase right and left channels is mono and that is not great.

Generally I look for some body on each note played across the frequency range. I do not like to hear a sort of unmusical shimmer hang over the music.

It can be hard to single it out because there are a number of other problems that can occur in a recording, such as background noise and proximity effects.

Also the recording could be pretty accurate but the guitar poor sounding or the playing rough and uneven.

And also most recordings you hear are not raw but have been tweaked with reverb, etc. and may end up sounding
pretty good even if the raw recording does not.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:24 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna View Post
As I recall and at least in part, my introduction to phasing issues was taught to me by way of the 3 to 1 rule particularly on single source stereo mic'ing. A starting point if you will. It was my pathway to the realization that if one wasn't careful with mic placement and technique phasing trouble might not be far behind.
My understanding of it is that it is more appropriate when talking about recording multiple sound sources (the classic example being two singers). It does not apply at all in recording a nearly point (or uniform) single sound source - explain how so if you think otherwise. On a single but wider sound source, such as a guitar, that has various timbres at different locations, it is something one could perhaps think about, but not too hard.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

Last edited by rick-slo; 02-03-2013 at 02:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-03-2013, 03:19 PM
islandguitar's Avatar
islandguitar islandguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,500
Default

thanks Rick....helpful!
__________________
1993 Bourgeois JOM
1967 Martin D12-20
2007 Vines Artisan Grand Concert-Cedar/Quilted Sapele
2014 Doerr Legacy-LS Redwood/Cocobolo
2014 Bamburg FSC-Carpathian Spruce/Macassar Ebony


______________________________
www.soundcloud.com/island-guitar
http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/fredbartlett
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=