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  #31  
Old 11-07-2011, 06:22 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I have the TLM 103 and it has the same issues with a single mike on an acoustic guitar. Ultimately it is what you are listening for and what you want to hear that makes your recording choices (that and your budget).
Before you condemn the TLM 103, I'd look around to see what's reflecting in your recording environment. The TLM 103 is a very w i d e cardioid, an extended HF response and a very low self noise. I own a pair. The space in which you use them has to be very controlled or they will show every acoustic flaw, like reflected phasey sound.

I once tried one in a radio station news booth and (as I suspected) it was a nightmare because of the large plate glass window and the tape decks (with motors). The bounce off the glass was very apparent and because of the extended HF response and low self-noise, you could plainly hear the bearings in the tape deck motors .

Not saying this is your setup, but a TLM 103 in an average bedroom studio is not a good idea. In addition, the TLM 103 doesn't like certain preamps, like the Mackies of Focusrite Red two channel preamp (among others). In those situations, the mic sounds spitty. The AKG C414 can be equally finnicky. SO if you want to use either of those mics, you also need to plan for preamps that don't make the mics sound bad.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #32  
Old 11-07-2011, 06:24 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Rick, hey I understand what you are saying about the guitar top and different freqz. coming from different locations on that top. And the basic psychoacoustics of stereo. Interestingly, If I remember correctly I think It was Taylor that ran some tests and determined that the lower freqz actually came off of the lower area opposite of what seems intuitive as to how the strings are arranged.

Be that as it may, it seems logical to conclude that with two mics (and all else being equal) your going to get twice the effect you mentioned "For example any particular place you put a mike sound from the bridge area and from the lower bout area arrive at the mike at different times and interfere with each other" so It would then follow that you might have the potential to have twice the comb filtering problems with two mics... But OTOH there are certainly many many great recordings of guitars done with stereo mic techniques. So there ya go

And a couple more things would then seem to make sense, that a SDC in cardioid or super cardioid narrowing the pic up pattern would then be the better option and also following this line reasoning it would seem that for instance with a single mic placing the mic further out , say more in the 3 to 6 foot range might also better address the sound board freqs differences. The Schoeps are actually considered to be quite good in this regard But then of course the more the room will come into play.
And just so were clear I am not at all opposed to the two mic techniques, in fact I used to routinely use a pair of shure KSM 44 for acoustic guitar.
One thing I have been intending on experimenting with is actually using my Schoeps in more around the 14 fret and then use my Brauner Phantom out a bit. Unfortunately I have been to busy remodeling to do any recording, but thats another story.
+1

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Ty Ford
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  #33  
Old 11-07-2011, 06:32 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Though not in the traditional sense of phase issues with multiple mikes there can be phase issues mic'ing a physically broad sound source, and one with a non uniform sound, with one mike, phase issues not in the mike but in the waveform at the mike's location. It is not the fault of the mike, just the nature of the instrument being recorded and why it is hard to get a good recording of an acoustic guitar.
That's why I tell people to have someone play the guitar while you (the recording engineer) stick a finger in one ear and move your head around in front of the guitar to find the best place in the sound lobes projected form the face. A half an inch can make a big difference sometimes. Can your brain detect that? Dunno. We don't all hear the same way.

Rick, any time I've removed the headgrille from a condenser mic it turned into a noise antenna because the headgrille is grounded and also acts as a noise shield. Think maybe Dick was using dynamic or ribbon mics?

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #34  
Old 11-07-2011, 07:01 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Rick,

I totally forgot about Faraday Shielding. Back in the day, the people who built recording studios used to apply metal panels to the walls (and probably ceilings and floors), connect them and ground them, protecting the entire area within from stray AC and RF fields.

Since this was an added expense, only studios with a true concern for purity and with deep pockets went that route. Dick was certainly in those circles, so it was very possible that he could have removed the headgrille from a condenser mic without problems.

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Ty Ford
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  #35  
Old 11-07-2011, 07:20 AM
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Ty, this is not what I was getting at in my last few posts though the one ear thing comes close. I often use one mike in mono for the sound I want and then add the second mike in stereo for best improvement over the mono sound. The issue I was talking about is largely unrelated to gear and more about how the brain interprets phase issues in mono versus stereo and how that may relate to guitar recordings. I will drop it for now (perhaps another thread).

Regarding the TLM 103 I was not condeming it at all although I do have mikes I prefer using at this point. The last time I used it I was using it with a Great River MP-2H. There is always room for room improvement.
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  #36  
Old 11-07-2011, 08:16 AM
KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Ty, this is not what I was getting at in my last few posts though the one ear thing comes close. I often use one mike in mono for the sound I want and then add the second mike in stereo for best improvement over the mono sound. The issue I was talking about is largely unrelated to gear and more about how the brain interprets phase issues in mono versus stereo and how that may relate to guitar recordings. I will drop it for now (perhaps another thread).

Regarding the TLM 103 I was not condeming it at all although I do have mikes I prefer using at this point. The last time I used it I was using it with a Great River MP-2H. There is always room for room improvement.
Hey Rick Actually I have found your statements quite thought provoking and Since the OP in his third post did in fact ask about one mic or two,
the discussion that has ensued has been IMO entirely on topic.

And of course what you are stating from a strict Laws of physics related to audio standpoint Is also entirely accurate i.e. : Two of same or simular signals arriving at a single mic at different time intervals will indeed strictly speaking be out of phase (even at single or fractions of milliseconds) as would in fact be the case with an acoustic guitar single close mic'ed at say 6" from the 14 th fret. The sound ( which travels at aprox. 1ft in 1 millisecond) coming from the lower rear of the guitar sound board (lets call it 24" from the 14 fret) is going to arrive at the mic aprox lets say 1.5 milliseconds after the sound from the 14 fret.

So the question is not weather or not there will be phase issues and resulting comb filtering effects because in fact there will be. The question is weather or not at those single or fractions of milliseconds, will they be discernable buy the human ear and brain and if so to what extent and how that might be interpreted.

This question is actually the source for endless debate in the audiophile world. Which is where I first ran into it, for 6 years I sold high end to audiophile grade stereo gear. It was actually a great opportunity to developed my critical listening skills by listening to music on great systems every day all day long. In all Honesty I was not a great salesman because if I thought some of the hype was BS I said so to my customers.
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Last edited by KevWind; 11-07-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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  #37  
Old 11-07-2011, 08:47 AM
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Kev, thanks for that. Glad to know we are on the same page at least in regards to what I was trying to talk about and not having me read yet more mundane principles of a recording setup.

Regarding time interval variance of sound arriving at a mike from different parts of the guitar, it would be quite noticeable IMO -we know how much difference slight movements of mike position can make for example. I agree more directional mikes (say hypercardioid) might address the issue somewhat but the recordings still may not sound that good due to other issues such as decreased ambiance, increased proximity effects, ect.
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  #38  
Old 11-07-2011, 09:09 AM
KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Kev, thanks for that. Glad to know we are on the same page at least in regards to what I was trying to talk about and not having me read yet more mundane principles of a recording setup.

Regarding time interval variance of sound arriving at a mike from different parts of the guitar, it would be quite noticeable IMO -we know how much difference slight movements of mike position can make for example. I agree more directional mikes (say hypercardioid) might address the issue somewhat but the recordings still may not sound that good due to other issues such as decreased ambiance, increased proximity effects, ect.
You are quite welcome and FWIW the sound on sound article was more for the OP and others who might be starting to investigate this subject.
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  #39  
Old 11-07-2011, 10:40 AM
flagstaffcharli flagstaffcharli is offline
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Thanks guys, I've been away from the pc mostly & need to get caught up. Thanks for the SOS article too!
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