Smaller guitars that equal a dread

[oldrocker]

I just read the several page resurrected thread on why there is such an emphasis on dreadnought size guitars. What an interesting and informative read. I've been playing guitar for 60 or so years and thought I could easily answer that question but I never cease to be amazed at the wealth of knowledge coming from members of this forum that have experience in areas I don't.

That thread really struck me because many of the comments discussed issues I've grappled with during my guitar journey but I've come to a place that I didn't see directly addressed in the responses to the thread on dreads. I've grown up loving the music associated with dreadnought guitars and owning and playing only dreads up until 2005. Partly because of the effects of a right shoulder injury in the 70's it became increasingly painful for me to play my dreadnought guitars. So, looking for a solution, I bought my first Taylor grand auditorium guitar (an 814) in 2005. The focus of my journey, which I know a lot of forum members can relate to, was to find a smaller guitar that I could play more comfortably but that still gave me the tone and volume I loved in my dreadnought guitars.

Without going into any of the details of my own journey and all the many guitars I've bought and sold since it started, I've ended up coming to a couple of conclusions. It is definitely possible to find a smaller body guitar that will equal or come close to the unamplified tone and volume characteristics typically associated with dreadnought guitars. I have ended up with 3 that do that for me. But, my own experience has been that doing so, especially in the OM and 000 size guitars, has meant moving away from the common manufactured brands and looking at hand-made or semi-hand-made guitars.

I'd love to hear from members who have been on this same journey to find a smaller body guitar with the tone and volume of a dread. What have you learned and what guitars have you found that do this for you?

[soups]

I have by no means an expert view on this, but I have been through a bunch of guitars over the past ten years, in many ways trying to do what you describe - find a smaller bodied instrument that brings the satisfaction of tone and volume that a dread brings.

My non-expert conclusion of instruments that come close to a dread as compared to one:

Bourgeois JOM. Very similar depth and volume as a dread: easier to play and hold because of the softer features and tighter waist; still a pretty big guitar, though smaller slightly than a dread.

Martin OM-28 1931 authentic. This one has a baked Adirondack top and a great low end punch. The best bit of loudness that I’ve gotten from an OM when trying to compare to a dread

Collings OM1 traditional Adirondack Cuban mahogany. Nearly the low end of a dread, the volume continues to grow as the Adi ages. A stunner of a D-18 type of sound in a compact package.

My conclusion is that you can catch a fair amount of depth in sound but you’ll never achieve full dreadnaught heft without the literal air space that a dread has. You can get close to the volume if you have a very responsive top. I think long scale is key. You might get a great sounding guitar short scale, but it won’t eclipse what a dreadnought could provide

[Glennwillow]

I have never found a smaller body guitar that can provide the wide frequency range of a dreadnought and I have spent a fair amount of money looking. I found a few models of OM guitars that were close as described below, but still not capable of the bass and volume of a really good dreadnought.

1. I have a 2006 Martin 000-28VS with a 1930s type of elongated body that generates more bass than the typical OM. With age, it has lost some of that bass, but in truth, it sounds better being a little less tubby in its response.

2. I bought a deep body Collings OM1A in 2009. It's a very nice guitar, but the deep body adds only subtle bass, especially on an OM with mahogany back and sides.

3. I have a Santa Cruz OM/PW from 2010. For an OM, it has a good sound, slightly bass heavy, but because the top had to be refinished and got thinned down, the treble response is also quite nice now.

I gave up buying OM size guitars. I eventually bought another dreadnought, a 2018 Martin D-45. The D-45 absolutely sounds like a dreadnought!

- Glenn

[Maryc-k]

Matt Arcara makes a 000 model guitar that is loud enough to use with a small band set up. He himself plays one instead of a dread these days.

[J Patrick]

Playing style is a big factor….if you’re playing in a hard hitting unamplified Bluegrass outfit it’s unlikely that any guitar smaller than a Dreadnought is gonna give you what a Dreadnought will..

If, on the other hand, you play with a more relaxed style and don’t really lay into it, a smaller guitar can often give you everything a Dreadnought will and sometimes more depending on the guitar..

Guitar comparisons are difficult because the player is left out of the conversation but is always half of the equation…

And then there’s the questions of setup, strings and picks….

[Bluenose]

It's simply a matter of physics IMO. All other things being equal, a bigger box will produce a louder and deeper sound. I'm not an expert but I can't see how it could be possibly be otherwise.

[lowrider]

Drag racers had it right ''There's no substitute for cubic inches''

The closest I know of is a 0000 12 fret. I have a 0000-18 12 fret that gets close;



With it's 4 1/8 depth and narrow waste, it will be easier on you shoulder and it will get you close to the dread tone

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Bluenose

It's simply a matter of physics IMO. All other things being equal, a bigger box will produce a louder and deeper sound. I'm not an expert but I can't see how it could be possibly be otherwise.

All things being equal, it can't be.

The nuance here is that all things are almost never close enough to equal to quell debate. Lots of dreads are factory guitars which are very good, but some handmade guitars can be far more responsive and dynamic due to wood selection, attention to detail, and most of all, luthier skill.

But then we're into some rarified air in terms of availability, wait times, cost, and...well...justification. Spend that much and wait that long and you might get that rare superlative guitar. The classifieds section suggests expectations and dreams aren't always met.

Originally Posted by lowrider

Drag racers had it right ''There's no substitute for cubic inches''

The closest I know of is a 0000 12 fret. I have a 0000-18 12 fret that gets close;



With it's 4 1/8 depth and narrow waste, it will be easier on you shoulder and it will get you close to the dread tone

Wow. Not generally a fan of the Martin burst, but that's gorgeous. Shape as well.

[elvisdog]

I have a nice little El Trovador that will walk all over a dread but it's got a resonator cone in the middle of it . . .

[Bowie]

Santa Cruz H13 is the only thing I've played that comes close. It's because they have body depth equal to a dread and a full scale length, which help it sound louder and deeper in the bass, despite the top essentially being a 00.

[Bluenose]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

All things being equal, it can't be.

The nuance here is that all things are almost never close enough to equal to quell debate. Lots of dreads are factory guitars which are very good, but some handmade guitars can be far more responsive and dynamic due to wood selection, attention to detail, and most of all, luthier skill.

But then we're into some rarified air in terms of availability, wait times, cost, and...well...justification. Spend that much and wait that long and you might get that rare superlative guitar. The classifieds section suggests expectations and dreams aren't always met.

Ok I understand what you're saying but what I'm saying is ...if whoever made that responsive, dynamic guitar made one exactly the same only bigger it would be louder and with deeper bass.

[foxo]

I’m happy with my smaller bodied guitar sounding like a smaller bodied guitar, and my now sold dreadnought sounding like a dreadnought. Variety is the spice of life.

[Silly Moustache]

Oldrocker wrote : That thread really struck me because many of the comments discussed issues I've grappled with during my guitar journey but I've come to a place that I didn't see directly addressed in the responses to the thread on dreads. I've grown up loving the music associated with dreadnought guitars and owning and playing only dreads up until 2005.

That was also me, until 2005 when I bought a 12 fret 000 (collings 0002h), in order to become the second Jimmie Rodgers (!!)
This was the largest Martin guitar design from 1902 until 1931 when they brought out the original (12 fret) dreadnought.
I love my three dreads, but over the past five years, I have purchased , and loved size 0, and 00 guitars.

Would a 00 work in a bluegrass band ? Nope. Why not ? because it was built primarily as a fingerstyle guitar, but that isn't to say that it is not a powerful instrument!

It is a matter of the "tool for the job"!

Dreanoughts appeared in 1931 and sold very poorly. it was re-designed as a rhythm instrument in 1934 - it still failed (like the OM) to appeal to the dance/swing bands, but found acceptance in the burgeoning country/folk/bluegrass community which was being broadcast on radio and finding a far larger audience.
Gibson also released the jumbo in the same year emulating the original dreadnought, but with a shorter scaled rhythm neck.

Frankly in these days of acoustic guitars being electrified, the volume (Cubic capacity) simply doesn't matter if it has a jack plug connecting it to an amp.

I confess that when performing, i still feel "safer" playing a dread.

[hesson11]

It's been so long since I've played—or even WANTED to play—a dred, that any comparisons to the smaller guitars I love would be quite unreliable.

[oldrocker]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

All things being equal, it can't be.

The nuance here is that all things are almost never close enough to equal to quell debate. Lots of dreads are factory guitars which are very good, but some handmade guitars can be far more responsive and dynamic due to wood selection, attention to detail, and most of all, luthier skill.

But then we're into some rarified air in terms of availability, wait times, cost, and...well...justification. Spend that much and wait that long and you might get that rare superlative guitar. The classifieds section suggests expectations and dreams aren't always met.

That pretty much sums up my experience. It's not that it can't be done. It's more about whether one is willing to go through the effort and expense it takes to find one.