Carter Picking is "upside down?"

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

Single mic'. No plugging in. On an acoustic archtop capo'd on fret 6 in the key of F#. And a measure of 2/4 thrown in just to chase the song along.

Wonderful

[JonPR]

If you want some real upside down (finger)pickin' - by another female originator - how about this:

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by phydaux

Now what little I know of classical guitar playing, classical guitar is similar to that Tommy, Chet, & Merle do.

Now given that Mother Maybelle was a self taught guitarist, what does that say about Carter Picking?

Hi p…
What does that say about Carter Picking? "It's distinctive, and easily identifiable, and catchy…"
Her picking was unique and set her apart from other 'pickers' of her time so much so that she grabbed people's attention and became very popular.

This is how Wikipedia described her style…
"Maybelle helped create the group's unique sound with her innovative style of guitar playing, using her thumb to play melody on the bass strings, and her index finger to fill out the rhythm. Her technique, sometimes known as the Carter Scratch, influenced the guitar's shift from rhythm to lead instrument."

Being different and good at what one does is often what catches the attention of listeners (and players).

And Tommy E, Chet Atkins, and Merle Travis were/are not similar to each other, and Merle was anything BUT classical in his technique. And neither Tommy E nor Chet were/are using classical posture nor hand positioning.

[phydaux]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

[size=2]And Tommy E, Chet Atkins, and Merle Travis were/are not similar to each other, and Merle was anything BUT classical in his technique. And neither Tommy E nor Chet were/are using classical posture nor hand positioning.

My point was that Tommy, Chet, and Merle played the melody on the top strings (like a piano player) and classical guitar also plays the melody on the top strings with the fingers and the accompaniment on the bottom strings with the thumb.

[BlueStarfish]

Well these days, most people would play “Carter Style” with a flatpick, not fingerpicks the way M. Carter did. My guess as to why — “brushing” chord playing style (which looks kinda like banjo frailing to me) is less versatile than playing chords with a flatpick.

Anyways from a flatpicker’s perspective, one can play Carter style well enough with the melody on top if one works on it. For example, my version of “Wayfaring Stranger” (in A minor) has Carter style melody breaks in both the lower and upper octaves. G position and D position also lend themselves to this low / high choice.

Or one can also play Carter Style with the melody and harmony all in the same range mixed together (which is often the case if playing in a C position). C position is really a great position for flatpicking and this is one of the reasons why.

So to me the choice of having the melody “on top” or “on bottom” with Carter style playing is a creative choice and not a fixed limitation. It’s only “upside down” if I want to play it that way.

Edit: I just spent 15 minutes noodling around with Wildwood Flower. The “standard” position for playing that tune on guitar is C (and as noted by Robin, M. Carter capo’ed it way up to F# to suit her alto voice). Anyways, in C position that tune has the melody and chords intermixed and on top of the chords for the B part (so not upside down at all). I’ve got a bass voice and C isn’t a great key for me for that melody (high note would be E open top string of the guitar). So I transposed it down to G capo 2 (so singing in A). In the G position that melody is indeed mostly “upside down”, except for the “B” part which goes up to the open B string on the high note (C# concert pitch, OK for me to sing). Anyways … proves the point that whether a Carter style melody is upside down or right side up or all mixed with the chords is a creative choice. Now it seems I need to learn the lyrics, thanks gang!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by phydaux

My point was that Tommy, Chet, and Merle played the melody on the top strings (like a piano player) and classical guitar also plays the melody on the top strings with the fingers and the accompaniment on the bottom strings with the thumb.

Hi phy…
That's not true. Many classical and modern fingerstyled guitar arrangements place the melody in at least 2 spots on the fingerboard - melody played high and melody played in the midrange, and a fair number include the melody in the low range as well.

Your thought is based on too shallow an understanding of classical, jazz, and traditional fingerstyle arranging.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi, I see Mother Maybelle's style as, essentially a Banjo frailing style.

Yep. Perhaps she picked up enough of that by ear from the music she was exposed to. I do that here
and there in some of the music I write. Of course when singing therein lies the melody.

[BlueStarfish]

As I was doing up the lunch dishes, I had a further thought on this thread.

The original poster’s question of “Carter picking is upside down” was based on an assumption that melody in Carter style is played on the bass strings.

That assumption is arguably a conventional wisdom. Heck, it’s in the definition of Carter style that ljguitar referred to. And I can remember being exposed to a similar sentiment when I was a little earlier in my learning journey.

Problem is, it’s not true. The Wildwood Flower example is a perfect proof point. In the standard M. Carter version (C position) the melody gets played on strings 1-5. But actually string 6 isn’t used for the melody itself. So it’s true that the bass strings get used in playing the melody. But it’s not true that the melody is played ONLY on the bass strings. The little-bit-more-accurate definition for Carter style is “play the song melody on whatever strings sound good, and then whenever the melody holds a note for a half note or longer, do some boom chucking.”

Seems this half-true conventional wisdom about Carter style has permeated the guitar playing world for a while … and just ain’t so. So to the OP … sorry you fell for this one too and happy picking to you!

[Robin, Wales]

The "upside down" element is that the melody is played with the thumb pick.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by BlueStarfish

“brushing” chord playing style (which looks kinda like banjo frailing to me)

Looks like that to me too.

But apparently she played autoharp first as a child; and while strumming that, it would be a natural enough thing to do to pick out melodies with the thumb between strumming. And then quite natural to transfer that to that guitar.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by BlueStarfish

As I was doing up the lunch dishes, I had a further thought on this thread.

The original poster’s question of “Carter picking is upside down” was based on an assumption that melody in Carter style is played on the bass strings.

That assumption is arguably a conventional wisdom. Heck, it’s in the definition of Carter style that ljguitar referred to. And I can remember being exposed to a similar sentiment when I was a little earlier in my learning journey.

Problem is, it’s not true. The Wildwood Flower example is a perfect proof point. In the standard M. Carter version (C position) the melody gets played on strings 1-5. But actually string 6 isn’t used for the melody itself. So it’s true that the bass strings get used in playing the melody. But it’s not true that the melody is played ONLY on the bass strings. The little-bit-more-accurate definition for Carter style is “play the song melody on whatever strings sound good, and then whenever the melody holds a note for a half note or longer, do some boom chucking.”

Seems this half-true conventional wisdom about Carter style has permeated the guitar playing world for a while … and just ain’t so. So to the OP … sorry you fell for this one too and happy picking to you!

My thought would have been "why aren't these guys here helping out with the dishes instead of just sitting around talking about Carter style".

Anyway, good thoughts all around.

Tony

[Bluenose]

Originally Posted by Italuke

Melodies can be in any voice (ie on any string) with the harmonic elements elsewhere. Most styles of music vary depending on the piece. I've played plenty of classical pieces with passages having the melody in the bass. Your observation about Carter is correct, but I'd hesitate to have such hard and fast rules about this style is this way, that style is that way.

Well put and I agree. Playing a melody in the treble then and playing it in the bass is, I think pretty common and heard in many fingerpicking songs both in classical and country and you can do it in the first position in the keys of G and C and probably others.

[Retired1]

I think Bluestarfish hit it on the head - Maybelle's style frequently is not accurately understood when described as 'melody on the bass strings. Contemporary 'Carter style' players are all over the fretboard playing melody, with bass fills on the lower strings and chords played as necessary - watch virtually any contemporary flatpicker play 'Wildwood Flower'

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, I am not overly proud of this old video in which I show how I pick out melody from the middle and bass strings, but it might help the discussion.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Retired1

I think Bluestarfish hit it on the head - Maybelle's style frequently is not accurately understood when described as 'melody on the bass strings. Contemporary 'Carter style' players are all over the fretboard playing melody, with bass fills on the lower strings and chords played as necessary - watch virtually any contemporary flatpicker play 'Wildwood Flower'

Watch Maybelle play. The unique aspect is that the melody is ALWAYS played by her with the thumb pick, even on the treble strings. The index finger, with a fingerpick fitted the wrong way around, simply brushes downward across the strings to add a treble fill. You can somewhat copy that with a flatpick, but it is not the Carter scratch per se. So saying that modern flatpickers are all over the fretboard is a bit of a red herring. You wouldn't say "I'm a fingerstyle guitarist except that I use a flatpick". I don't actually know any contemporary Carter scratch players - i.e. someone who plays with a thumb pick and single reversed fingerpick - but there may be a few around.

And in this thread the OP was talking about the Carter scratch v Travis picking. Both players used a thumb pick and single fingerpick (albeit worn different ways around) but each ones approach was very different.

The OP focused on the fact that Maybelle played the melody with the thumb pick, whereas Travis played the melody with the fingerpick. And this is the "upside down" aspect - not which strings are being used for the tune. Although, obviously, if you play the melody with a thumb pick then you are more likely to focus on the bass strings; and if you play melody with a fingerpick then you are more likely to focus on the treble strings. Conversely, Travis' rhythm came from his thumb pick; Maybelle's rhythm came from her fingerpick.

Both were singers first and players second. And in terms of their own playing style development perhaps this factor is the most significant.