Issue with Recording levels .

[Riakstonic]

Hi hope alls well with folks .

I’ve been having an issue with getting up to line level signal gain recording with mics .

I know you can boost track gain track volume and master volume but pushing them to max seems not the way to go .

My mics are Lewitt 440 and Blue spark . I’m using the Lexicon IO-42 for my interface .

I record finger style acoustic at 24 bit .

My daw is Reason 10 on PC .

Now I mic about 24” away in stereo about 24” or so apart .
I can more volume if I push the mics closer but then I lose air or space and guitar sounds like it’s right on top of the mics if that makes sense .

On the Lexicon it takes gain levels set to 3 o’clock almost max to get a fair level . Set at 2 levels on the Daw read about -20 .

I try to keep the signal as clean as possible and refrain from using and EQ just some reverb .

This issue has been with me for years now and I’m trying figure out a fix if there is one .

Questions in my head is us the interface ? I know it’s old . Lol or is it the DAW ? I’m not sure .

Thanks for any advice that will help. 😊

[rick-slo]

Around 40 decibel gain on my preamp (can to to 70 decibel gain) is plenty when I am recording an acoustic guitar.

Is your -20 in the DAW some averaged value or about what the peaks are at? For an average that is ok for 24 bit recording though you could go a bit more. I theory anyway I aim at at -16 to -14 average for most recordings and I have read that most plugins (VST) effects are happy to operate in that range.

Does not matter that you boost the volume up in the DAW (probably as the last step to the level you want).

[Al Acuff]

-12 to -18 is the level you are shooting for on your DAW meters. If you aren't able to get that you should prolly try a different interface. For what it's worth Santa brought me a new Universal Audio interface to replace my ten year old Apogee unit. Interfaces have come a long way in ten years!

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Riakstonic

Hi hope alls well with folks .

I’ve been having an issue with getting up to line level signal gain recording with mics .

I know you can boost track gain track volume and master volume but pushing them to max seems not the way to go .

My mics are Lewitt 440 and Blue spark . I’m using the Lexicon IO-42 for my interface .

I record finger style acoustic at 24 bit .

My daw is Reason 10 on PC .

Now I mic about 24” away in stereo about 24” or so apart .
I can more volume if I push the mics closer but then I lose air or space and guitar sounds like it’s right on top of the mics if that makes sense .

On the Lexicon it takes gain levels set to 3 o’clock almost max to get a fair level . Set at 2 levels on the Daw read about -20 .

I try to keep the signal as clean as possible and refrain from using and EQ just some reverb .

This issue has been with me for years now and I’m trying figure out a fix if there is one .

Questions in my head is us the interface ? I know it’s old . Lol or is it the DAW ? I’m not sure .

Thanks for any advice that will help. ��

Hard to say for sure ...First what exactly do you mean by "up to line level using mics" ?? Do you mean the level is higher if you go from a pickup on the guitar to line in on your interface ? Also the specs for your interface show 58 db gain which should enough.


What input levels are you getting in the Reaper track meters , are you selecting the "Show db scales on tracks" option ?

As to your other questions:
#1 no you do not want to boost the track or master level you should leave them @ (O) (while recording). you can boost them in mixing if necessary .

Me I would try getting the guitar a bit closer to the mics. say 10-14 inches .. try to fin a balance between "right on top" and "back in the room" try to get a decent level going in.

Also (Air) usually means high frequency range 8k- 10 k and up
(Space) can mean either room reverberation OR presence

Air can a function of and brought back in with a slight boost shelving filter in the high frequencies starting at say 8k -10k
Presence can be increased with judicious compression

Reverb try a separate reverb track (called parallel FX track) send the guitar track to the reverb track with and EQ then the reverb
Try 50-60 ms of Pre delay will help on both air and presence and also try using the Abbey Road reverb trick. EQ before the reverb with a high and low pass filters set to ,,,, 600 Hz for the high pass and 8k -10k for the low pass

[ChuckS]

I looked up specs on your gear. Your microphones are sensitive enough (output signal level based on input sound pressure level). Your interface provides up to 58dB of gain. Like others responding, I’m curious if the -20 dBFS signal from your interface is the peak or averaged signal. At a distance of 24”, an average -20 dBFS level isn’t out of the ordinary (depending on how loud you play).

That said, you could get an interface, or external preamp with more gain. However, having 58dB gain in your existing interface isn’t bad.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Riakstonic

This issue has been with me for years now and I’m trying figure out a fix if there is one .

Questions in my head is us the interface ? I know it’s old . Lol or is it the DAW ? I’m not sure .

Let me throw out another variable: playing style. If you play softly with a light touch, you'll need more gain at the inputs or boost later in the DAW. This will especially be true with your mic placement farther away. You can try to "play to the back of the house" a bit more--louder volume from the guitar itself and you'll need less input gain to begin with.

[Riakstonic]

Ok folks , Thanks for the replies .

Ok let’s see if I can say this right lol

On the track meters in the daw the levels umm I don’t know how many bars there are total lol let’s say 15 line level or optimum level which I’m getting from Reasons info is 10 bars .

Mine is like 4-5 which in the channel shows the -20 give or take . On my last tune I had the gain about cranked full and pulled the mics a bit closer .

It sounds good volume wise my playing 🤔 lol
But I had to also up the track gain master track one volume and the the master itself to get it close to a loud enough level for play back .

If you go to my sound cloud page all the songs are at different levels totally my fault for not trying to match a set level for all but I just kind of a did a set it and for get it kind of thing .

Usually my gain settings are about 1 o’clock but play back is low what screwed me up was my monitoring level made it seem like it’s fine but it wasn’t .

I definitely need to write down some instructions to myself to remember to keep each song at set level so anyone listening gets the same volume . I’m totally A.D.D oh look a quarter!

If I run the gain up floor noise through the roof . I’m amazed at how many folks I listen to with basic recording get such a clean sound yet I’m beating myself senseless trying to do it on my end ! Lol 😂

I don’t know how some of these folks get such a clean recording if I ask the respond they just hit record . Hmmm just that simple huh ? Lol

Mic placement . I see many have or what looks like the mics just as far away 24” or a bit farther and there levels are great ?

If mics are on top of the guitar it loses ambiance . Is that the right word to use ? It sounds more dead or more like someone talking a inch away from ear at regular volume . I’m just trying to describe what I mean best way I can which probably doesn’t help . Lmao 🤣

Oh also when you record you see those nice sound waves well on mine it’s a solid he’s dead Jim he’s dead, lol pretty much a flat line . Hahaha

Let me try and get some track pics that would help a bit .

[Sasquatchian]

Just because you might have a claimed 58db of gain in your pre-amp, does not mean it's a clean and usable 58db. And rather than referring to how many bars it shows, you need to be able to measure in actual numbers that mean something - like LUFS - Loudness Units Full Scale, even if you have to work backwards by putting an LUFS meter in your DAW to read your actual values after recording and working backwards to figure out how many bars you need to achieve the correct level. The biggest problem is that while 24 bit recording provides plenty of headroom with a theoretical 96db range, your interface can only use two thirds of that and is probably getting noisy when you push it hard. If you have quiet pre-amps you should be able to easily push the gain in your DAW to the required levels, but I'm guessing that these are not anywhere near state of the art and as some others have pointed out, a newer, more modern interface might be in order. And some interface/mic combos seem to like each other better than others.

Maybe look at something like an Apollo Twin from UAD - something with good, clean pre-amps, the ability to use UAD's fabulous Unison technology and still fairly affordable. And UAD's Console app is a professional tool that will give you proper recording levels on the way in and out to your DAW. And finally having a way to accurately measure how loud your playback is, like somewhere in the 70-80 db range is crucial as well. All the elements have to work together.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Riakstonic

Ok folks , Thanks for the replies .

Ok let’s see if I can say this right lol

On the track meters in the daw the levels umm I don’t know how many bars there are total lol let’s say 15 line level or optimum level which I’m getting from Reasons info is 10 bars .

Mine is like 4-5 which in the channel shows the -20 give or take . On my last tune I had the gain about cranked full and pulled the mics a bit closer .

It sounds good volume wise my playing 🤔 lol
But I had to also up the track gain master track one volume and the the master itself to get it close to a loud enough level for play back .

If you go to my sound cloud page all the songs are at different levels totally my fault for not trying to match a set level for all but I just kind of a did a set it and for get it kind of thing .

Usually my gain settings are about 1 o’clock but play back is low what screwed me up was my monitoring level made it seem like it’s fine but it wasn’t .

I definitely need to write down some instructions to myself to remember to keep each song at set level so anyone listening gets the same volume . I’m totally A.D.D oh look a quarter!

If I run the gain up floor noise through the roof . I’m amazed at how many folks I listen to with basic recording get such a clean sound yet I’m beating myself senseless trying to do it on my end ! Lol 😂

I don’t know how some of these folks get such a clean recording if I ask the respond they just hit record . Hmmm just that simple huh ? Lol

Mic placement . I see many have or what looks like the mics just as far away 24” or a bit farther and there levels are great ?

If mics are on top of the guitar it loses ambiance . Is that the right word to use ? It sounds more dead or more like someone talking a inch away from ear at regular volume . I’m just trying to describe what I mean best way I can which probably doesn’t help . Lmao 🤣

Oh also when you record you see those nice sound waves well on mine it’s a solid he’s dead Jim he’s dead, lol pretty much a flat line . Hahaha

Let me try and get some track pics that would help a bit .

I am thinking at this point you should probably do a couple of things
First considering listing you system ( I simply put mine in my Signature line under "the User CP" window ) that way people have an obvious visual reference
of you system .

Second at this point in the discussion a picture is worth a thousand words >
figure out how to do screen shots on you computer of your daw Mixer specifically
I just realized you said Reason not Reaper so I do have Reason and will do some quick checks for levels I am getting.

[jim1960]

Riakstonic,
I suspect your issues are on multiple fronts. You’re using an interface that’s more than a decade old. It still works but even the cheaper interfaces on the market today are going to have better AD/DA conversion and some will have far better preamps.

You don’t understand gain staging, you don’t really have a sense of the limitations of your gear, and you don’t know the levels you should be shooting for when tracking. Additionally, when you compare your recordings against others, if the other person’s recording has been mastered, your raw tracks are unlikely to sound as good as theirs because you’ve really only done half the job.

So let’s go over a few things… if you decide to upgrade your interface, I’d suggest looking at the offerings from MOTU, Audient, Apogee, and RME. Sasquatchian recommended the UA Apollo series but if I were building a new system, I’d steer clear of the Apollos. The UA Apollo is a closed dsp system. UA plugins are expensive and can only be used via dsp chips in the Apollo or some other piece of UA hardware. The limits the number of instances you can instantiate a plugin and there’s just no good reason to be handcuffed like that today. There was a time when the UA plugins were the best in the business. They’re still excellent but there are plenty of excellent native options to choose from today. I don’t know if UA will revamp or replace the Apollo line, but changes are going to have to come within the next year or three. So, imo, now is a bad time to start building an Apollo based system. (Sasquatchian is correct on the issue of referring to bars and o’clocks to explain your settings. Those references have no meaning. If Reason doesn’t have a meter plugin, you need to get one.)

While gain staging is more forgiving in digital systems than in the analog systems of yesteryear, it’s still something that has to be done correctly. Recording at -20 in on the very low side. If you had stellar preamps, that might not be an issue but you’re using an interface that’s more than a decade old and was never in the running for best of show in its class. Recording that low is bound to introduce noise. If your finished works are just vocal and guitar, or just a single guitar, I’d shoot for -14 to -12 at a minimum.

If you have the preamp gain at or near the maximum, you’re absolutely introducing unwanted noise onto your tracks.

There are many videos on YouTube that cover the subject. Watching a few will give you a better handle on it and your recordings will benefit from it.

One example…


The desire to refrain from using EQ makes no sense to me. We use EQ to make our tracks sound better. Why would you not want to make your tracks sound better? If you’re recording in an untreated room that has a lot of low frequency rumble, EQ is how you can minimize the detrimental effect that rumble has on your recorded tracks. If you’re recording with microphones that produce harshness in some of the upper frequencies, EQ is how you minimize that problem as well.

Your complain about all your songs being at different levels is because your tracks have not been mastered (but that’s a topic for another day because you have to get all the other stuff sorted before you start thinking about learning how to master).

Mic placement is a tricky thing. The slightest changes can sometimes produce pretty significant changes to what you hear on the other end. You say you’re seeing people mic at distances of 24” or more. If those folks are getting great results, at least one of these three things are true…
1. They’re recording in a great sounding room.
2. They’re using top notch gear and employing the appropriate tools in post-production to get the tracks sounding great.
3. The on-site recording engineers are truly experts at mic placement and know how to maximize the results they get in non-studio settings.

Unfortunately for you, #1 is unlikely the current condition of your recording space, and #2 and #3 are probably not in the cards.

That means you have to make some compromises when tracking. Pulling the mics in closer can reduce the influence a bad room has on recorded tracks. Using a couple or three bass traps to create a space within a space while you’re recording can further improve your results.

That’s where I’d start if I were you. I’d experiment with mic placement and pull those mics in a lot closer.

If you haven’t already explored the stickied thread in this subforum called “AGF Members Gear Masterlist and Recommended Tutorial Videos,” I recommend you spend some time looking at the videos on recording acoustic guitar. There’s a lot of very good information there that could be helpful to you.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Riakstonic

Now I mic about 24” away in stereo about 24” or so apart .
I can more volume if I push the mics closer but then I lose air or space and guitar sounds like itÂ’s right on top of the mics if that makes sense .

On the Lexicon it takes gain levels set to 3 oÂ’clock almost max to get a fair level . Set at 2 levels on the Daw read about -20 .

Originally Posted by Riakstonic

Mine is like 4-5 which in the channel shows the -20 give or take . On my last tune I had the gain about cranked full and pulled the mics a bit closer .

Usually my gain settings are about 1 oÂ’clock but play back is low what screwed me up was my monitoring level made it seem like itÂ’s fine but it wasnÂ’t .

If I run the gain up floor noise through the roof . IÂ’m amazed at how many folks I listen to with basic recording get such a clean sound yet IÂ’m beating myself senseless trying to do it on my end ! Lol 😂

I donÂ’t know how some of these folks get such a clean recording if I ask the respond they just hit record . Hmmm just that simple huh ? Lol

Mic placement . I see many have or what looks like the mics just as far away 24” or a bit farther and there levels are great ?

If mics are on top of the guitar it loses ambiance .

I would first like to say that I listened to several of your tracks on Soundcloud...
Not all the way through...as that would take some time..I wanted to concentrate on listening to your guitar tone & signal.

I am super impressed with your creativity, you guitar playing abilities and your lovely, lovely guitar tone you are getting. Sincerely...you seeming have a prefect touch on guitar. And your voice sounds lovely as well. Some beautiful writings-creations. With the utmost of sincerity...you have some very nice writings.

Second, I am quite a novice and I also need to understand more about levels. I am sure I will be right there with you in trying to understand this all when I star recording my album. I have so much to learn.
With that being said....with the little experience I do have, I still might be able offer some valuable considerations.

There were several reasons why I bought an Audient ID44. One of the reasons is so many people touted the high quality preamps of Audient. Claiming that they are of the same quality as those in their high end mixing consoles. And indeed they are of good quality. Like you I had to turn up the volume level way too much. Audient preamps have 60 db of gain.

Doug Young has presented many audio tests for us to evaluate over the years...one of them has been with preamps. Doug can make anything sound good with any microphone, preamp or equipment used...Yet when he did some of his preamp tests, I could still hear some minor differences. I heard Heft added to the signal, when he used preamps with transformers. I heard a little bit more openness. It was a small difference, never the less, it was there.

Finally I took the big lunge and bought some John Hardy preamps. While the Hardy's have the same output of 60db of gain as my Audient...I only have to turn them up half of what it takes in the Audient. Go figure, Technically the same db output but, completely different level? Further more...the sound really opened up. This might be be especially true for someone like you who wishes to capture all of the ambience( as you put it) of the Guitar.

What you call ambience, I define as hearing the sound from every part of the guitar and not just the soundhole. I can be a little aggressive in my playing style...and I use a custom gauge string set that is a few pounds heavier than mediums. My theory for my playing style, is that the sound comes from everywhere from the Fretboard to way behind bridge. Like you, I do not feel the sound captures my playing style if I do not space out the microphones wide. For others....a Wide spacing is not necessary...but for myself...it is. A dedicated high quality microphone preamp may be part of a solution for yourself. Most companies will allow you to at least be able to return a preamp if you feel it did not make a difference.

Another possibility for you to experiment with using even wider spacing( =I am currently using 30 inches spread!)..But Closer in, and angling the microphone inward. If you move in the microphones to 10 to 12 inches...and really angle them inwards....you of course will have to turn up the dials less. And you might find that you are still capturing the ambience...

Possibly the most important lesson Doug Young has taught me is how much just once inch can make a difference in recording tone. In your method...of placing them out at 24 inches away...the differences are much less. That is because farther back you are hearing all of the guitar. Closer in...that one, two or three inches difference in mic placement and angle...can be dramatic. So it will take more time in experimentation to get the results you might desire.

So my two suggestions are to investigate, audition...a quality preamp..and experiment with angles of your microphone at a slightly closer distance but at a slightly wider spread and more dramatic angles.

Stephen Wake also uses a wide spread, and gets lovely tones.

[KevWind]

So normally I only use Reason as a plugin in pro tools to access Reasons great set of instruments and FX

But I just booted it up as the DAW and did a quick Guitar recording with a couple stage condenser mics (which need a pretty high level of pre amp gain)

I had forgotten the metering issue in Reason where it looks the only input metering is in the "Sequencer" window (or Edit window in most other DAWs)
and in that view there is as you say only bars (no db scale) which you cannot see until playback

So the only suggestion I can make is when recording a fairly sparse project like solo Acoustic guitar or just guitar and Vocal... Set the input level from you mic pre to be just getting into the yellow bars. This will then give you a level you can mix with and for example use just a bit of Master Compression to get the final output level up to say -4 max peak with maybe a -10 or -12 average level And yes make that your consistent target final peak level

Here is the video example so this raw level (showing just a couple yellows and one yellow bar hold , would then be easy to add a bit of compression with the Mater Compressor at the top of Reason Mixer to get up to that -4 peak

[TBman]

I think your mics are too far back. I keep mine between 10 and 12" inches from the guitar.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by TBman

I think your mics are too far back. I keep mine between 10 and 12" inches from the guitar.

Though that distance is fine I prefer to mike several inches further out than that.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Though that distance is fine I prefer to mike several inches further out than that.

Your room is better than mine though.