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  #46  
Old 03-22-2011, 04:43 AM
D. Churchland D. Churchland is offline
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Ah yes, I guess if I had just read the posts it would've saved me some typing

You might could try leveling out your volume, 6db's is alot of difference but I have never used an H2 before so I don't know what it's capable of.
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  #47  
Old 03-22-2011, 04:50 AM
joehempel joehempel is offline
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Originally Posted by Will Kirk View Post
Ah yes, I guess if I had just read the posts it would've saved me some typing

You might could try leveling out your volume, 6db's is alot of difference but I have never used an H2 before so I don't know what it's capable of.
Haha, it's all good. One thing I'm going to try and do is position the mic a bit farther back. Maybe it's too close. I'm going to try and angle it and reposition it back further.

I still don't think the unit is broken...I still think it's me LOL
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  #48  
Old 03-22-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by joehempel View Post
Just thought of something here:

If I'm converting a phasey stereo like mine to mono, I should be getting cancellation effects right? But I'm not. So...I'm kind of confused.
I think you are getting cancellation, the left and right parts of of the signal that are out of phase are canceling, at least to some degree. You won't get a complete cancellation unless the signals are identical, you just get weird tonal effects. But I'm also very confused, I've never seen a phase pattern exactly like what you're getting, and we haven't quite been able to reproduce the effect with an H2 even by trying!. People are hearing it, Will described it as a "washy" sound, and I heard it before I reached for my tools, so this isn't just a technical thing. I can't imagine how you could be doing anything wrong to achieve this, unless the unit is somehow stuck in surround mode. Know anyone else with a similar recorder? Or any kind of recorder? An iphone would do :-) It'd be really interesting to try a recording with another recorder.
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  #49  
Old 03-22-2011, 04:04 PM
themachinist themachinist is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Something odd going on. You wouldn't get this effect just from minor mic positioning changes in an XY mic setup. Here's Adobe Audition's phase view with a signal that's fairly wide, but basically in phase. XY, like the Zoom is supposed to be would be much narrower and even more in phase than this image:


In this tool, left and right is the width, and up down is phase. A mono signal will be a straight line, straight up. Here's your original track:



very wide, and mostly out of phase. This gives you a weird hollow sound that sort of makes your ears swim as you listen, very "phasey".
Doug, I was just wondering how you get this phase view to show in Adobe Audition? I use the program to record as well and I seem to encounter the "swimmy" and tinny sound every so often when I'm recording with a stereo mic setup. Very strange as I thought if you have two mics on the guitar and they are panned left and right you don't need to worry about phase issues. But I still get the awkward sounds sometimes!
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  #50  
Old 03-22-2011, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by themachinist View Post
Doug, I was just wondering how you get this phase view to show in Adobe Audition? !
on Audition 3 on a PC, it's under Window -> Phase Analysis. I actually prefer the "Spectral Phase Display", which is on an icon in the top bar, but it's a lot further from the standard phase display, so only Audition users would understand it.
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  #51  
Old 03-22-2011, 04:36 PM
themachinist themachinist is offline
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Thanks a lot, got it! Sorry to ask to pick your brains a little further, I know this is a little off the main topic, but do any of you also hear the described phase issues in this: http://www.seansiegfried.com/Irish%20Ho-Hoane.mp3

The thing that really weirds me out is that I've stereo mic'd the guitar and the mics are (i hope) panned hard left and right. I read that you needn't worry about phase issues in this case? So I therefore don't quite use the 3-1 rule.. but it just seems hit and miss (ie sometimes I get a lovely recording coming through, sometimes odd and tinny).
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  #52  
Old 03-22-2011, 05:39 PM
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Sounds (and looks) fine to me. Nicely in phase overall. I can see that you are using spaced pairs, with a wide image, but it sounds good.
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  #53  
Old 03-22-2011, 07:51 PM
themachinist themachinist is offline
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Phew! Well that's got me settled and back in focus. Thanks a lot for helping me Doug!
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  #54  
Old 03-22-2011, 10:02 PM
joehempel joehempel is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I think you are getting cancellation, the left and right parts of of the signal that are out of phase are canceling, at least to some degree. You won't get a complete cancellation unless the signals are identical, you just get weird tonal effects. But I'm also very confused, I've never seen a phase pattern exactly like what you're getting, and we haven't quite been able to reproduce the effect with an H2 even by trying!. People are hearing it, Will described it as a "washy" sound, and I heard it before I reached for my tools, so this isn't just a technical thing. I can't imagine how you could be doing anything wrong to achieve this, unless the unit is somehow stuck in surround mode. Know anyone else with a similar recorder? Or any kind of recorder? An iphone would do :-) It'd be really interesting to try a recording with another recorder.
I'll try to record with my Android....see what happens, and I'll look at the panning as well. Maybe that somehow got changed.

Its odd....very very odd.
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  #55  
Old 03-23-2011, 03:57 AM
D. Churchland D. Churchland is offline
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Is it possible to record on an H2 with just one of the two microphones? Or is dead set on using both in the stereo pattern? might be interesting to see if the two mics recorded seperately yield different results. The tonal difference would be there obviously but it's something to consider if it's possible with an H2.
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  #56  
Old 03-23-2011, 06:33 AM
joehempel joehempel is offline
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Okay, so the panning only works in 4ch surround mode which I wasn't using so the option to check wasn't available. I did adjust the mic off center and rotated a bit so that there wasn't such a volume difference between the left and right sides. Just to see what happens.

I recorded one file like that, and the other file in 2channel surround mode.

Original File:
http://www.box.net/shared/flrc2tpkb2

Surround File:
http://www.box.net/shared/z7dfpi26t8

Phase Shifted with Pase Bug of the original file:
http://www.box.net/shared/ilpxf0ft3v

Re-recorded, did the whole mix/master with the Phase Shifter and some Reverb/Delay:
http://www.box.net/shared/euuqu5iajj
Wow I don't think I should have to use a phase shifter when doing this, if I can get the exact ammount of where the phase is off then it won't be too big of a deal to fix it. I guess, but it all depends on what the scope says. It's MUCH narrower when I look at it compared to the rest from what I can tell in the tiny scope in Sony Sound Forge.

Last edited by joehempel; 03-23-2011 at 09:12 AM.
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  #57  
Old 03-23-2011, 10:22 AM
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Not having an H2, I'm not sure what your setting changes did, but both the original and surround files are now pretty good, not quite as phase-coherent as I'd expect from XY mics, but close enough and very different (much improved) from what you posted originally. The actual sound isn't quite there tho, very boomy on your bass notes. You probably need to experiment with placement. You may be too close, or too close the the soundhole.

I'm quite puzzled by the H2 issues, tho. This gizmo should be fairly fail-safe in normal XY mode. Point it, push the record button, and you should have a decent recording.
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  #58  
Old 03-23-2011, 10:29 AM
joehempel joehempel is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Not having an H2, I'm not sure what your setting changes did, but both the original and surround files are now pretty good, not quite as phase-coherent as I'd expect from XY mics, but close enough and very different (much improved) from what you posted originally. The actual sound isn't quite there tho, very boomy on your bass notes. You probably need to experiment with placement. You may be too close, or too close the the soundhole.

I'm quite puzzled by the H2 issues, tho. This gizmo should be fairly fail-safe in normal XY mode. Point it, push the record button, and you should have a decent recording.
Yeah I'm not sure....The mic is turned a bit so that it's not as volume different between the left and right, the mic was placed a bit farther back, maybe 8".

I messed with a phase shifter a bit, and one thing I wasn't listening for and should have been is if I was hearing the music out of one speaker more than the other when the volume was the same.....using the phase shifter I was able to tweak it when it was done, and to me, it's quite a pleasant experience to listen to.

Sooooo.....ONE MORE TIME! LOL.....Doug Thanks so much for all your help, it's really meant alot!! I think I'm FINALLY beginning to understand this....with many many more miles to go. But this to me sounds the best out of all of them....hopefully it does to you too...I don't think anything weird is going on....I hope not anyway LOL.

http://www.box.net/shared/aolkctyak0
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  #59  
Old 03-23-2011, 10:38 AM
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This sounds like it might be a faulty unit.
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  #60  
Old 03-23-2011, 10:45 AM
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This sounds like it might be a faulty unit.
yeah, that's my best guess as well. It might be worth picking up a new one, with the idea that you can return it if it acts the same way.
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