Persimmon wood?

hat · #1 10-11-2018, 06:57 AM

I have a line on some Persimmon wood local to me. I have wanted to find some big enough to get a back/side set out of for quite a while now. I'm just curious, does anyone have any experience with Persimmon wood guitars, or pictures of them they could post? I know that normally Persimmon doesn't grow large enough to get a standard two piece back cut, so I may have to do a 3 piece. Any tips on working the wood are also welcomed.

H165 · #2 10-11-2018, 08:17 AM

Well, persimmon is hard as rocks (commonly used for golf club heads - way harder than maple or rosewood on Janka scale). Might sound a bit like hard maple. Tight grain and good appearance. For a 000 you need absolute minimum 7.25" width for a book-matched set. I've not seen a persimmon plank that wide, so you may be right about more pieces in the back.

As for trying it as a tone wood - I'd love to try it. If you find some wide wood, let us know!

mercy · #3 10-11-2018, 08:21 AM

Though its very light colored, being hard it should sound good.

Alan Carruth · #4 10-11-2018, 08:28 AM

I built a Persimmon wood OM some years ago. It had a 4-piece back, but was otherwise conventional. I really don't think having more pieces in the back makes any difference anyway, except that they take longer to assemble.

This is a very hard and tough wood. In some subsequent break tests with side tapes I found that cut offs of those sides without tapes took twice as much force to crack as similar pieces of IRW. It's an ebony, even when it's white, as that wood was, and it bends like it. I think you could easily go thinner on the sides with no loos of strength, particularly if you use tapes for reinforcement.

I think you could also go a bit thinner on the back than you would with a rosewood: maybe 10%-15%. This stuff is pretty dense, and with the toughness that would help keep the weight down without compromising strength. Of course, as always, woods vary, and real measurements would help. I'm sorry I can't give you any: that was a long time ago and I was not keeping as good records then.

The sound was good: this stuff is in the 'rosewood' class for tone IMO. If I was playing a gig is one of those places where they put up chicken wire between you and the audience, this is the guitar I'd want to be playing.

lar · #5 10-12-2018, 03:58 PM

Description of the wood sounds good until the last sentence:

"Persimmon trees are known much more commonly for their fruit, and not their wood. Persimmon is technically related to true ebonies (Diospyros genus), and is therefore sometimes referred to as “white ebony.”

Persimmon wood is heavy, hard, and strong for a temperate species. It has excellent shock and wear resistance, but has a very high shrinkage rate, and may experience significant movement in service."

(https://www.wood-database.com/persimmon/)

Quickstep192 · #6 10-12-2018, 04:43 PM

Persimmon used to be used for golf clubs because of its hardness.
I don’t think the trees get very big and that could be why wide pieces are hard to find.

bufflehead · #7 10-14-2018, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

The sound was good: this stuff is in the 'rosewood' class for tone IMO. If I was playing a gig is one of those places where they put up chicken wire between you and the audience, this is the guitar I'd want to be playing.

This comment absolutely cracked me up. I have no idea what the takeaway is, but....

I'm old enough to have learned golf with persimmon woods. Not only hard, but heavy. I'm not sure I'd want a heavy guitar.

John Arnold · #8 10-14-2018, 10:27 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure I'd want a heavy guitar

It's all relative. 'Heavy' is in relation to common domestic hardwoods like oak, maple, or walnut. It is the same density as Indian or Brazilian rosewood. But being a tougher, less brittle wood, it can be worked thinner.

Average dried weight, from the Wood Database:

persimmon = 52 lbs/cubic foot

Indian rosewood, Brazilian rosewood = 52

white oak = 47

hard maple = 44

black walnut = 38

Quote:

Persimmon wood is heavy, hard, and strong for a temperate species. It has excellent shock and wear resistance, but has a very high shrinkage rate, and may experience significant movement in service.

I have cut a fair amount of persimmon from logs, and while it does tend to shrink and warp during drying, I have not experienced unusually high movement once it is seasoned. In that regard, I think it compares favorably to a wood like maple.

Alan Carruth · #9 10-15-2018, 12:05 PM

Persimmon does seem to undergo a of of drying degrade due, most likely, to differential shrinkage depending on the ring orientation. You get checking near the center of the log, and the pieces seem to bow a fair amount. Once the wood has been seasoned it seems pretty stable, especially when it's quartered. You could say the same of Brazilian rosewood, which may be even worse.

My daughter lives in St. Louis, and I've seen some pretty good sized persimmon trees out there. I suspect that it can grow large if it's allowed to. The issue is more one of value: since it's not really a commercial species most of it gets used for things like fire wood and fence posts. They don't try to grow big trees.

hat · #10 10-16-2018, 08:55 AM

About 20 years ago, I had a large old tree located that the owner wanted down. Before I could get to it, he let his brother talk him into letting him cut it to sell to H-B in Louisville. (at the time they made wood golf club heads). The owner never saw a penny out of it. His loss - and mine.

DRBDJS · #11 10-19-2021, 04:57 PM

I came to this thread via Google search--late to the party (by about 4 years).

With the (fairly new) emphasis on using local woods (I am in Nashville Tennessee), Persimmon came to mind while actually eating a Persimmon. I asked my friend (and former neighbor) George Gruhn if he had ever seen a guitar made with Persimmon. He said "no", but that he once had one with a Persimmon Peghead.

As a kid (and into adulthood) my Grandfather had a sawmill and we sawed functionally every species native to the Nashville area--including Persimmon. Hard and dense. When quatersawn it is quite stable. George did not know why it could not be used as an acoustic back/sides except for the fact that it is hard to saw, and not particularly pretty wood. I threw in a few of the facts mentioned here (it is not normally a large tree but one does not need a huge tree to make a guitar back). My guess (just a guess) is that there are not enough positives about the tone to make it worth the effort at the sawmill.

We used to saw quite a bit of Maple(for us, small amount of their total wood) for Gibson for use in LPs and others. We also helped them test out Osage Orange wood for fretboards (would have been the very late 1980s-early 1990s). It was actually likely a very good choice but they rejected the idea ultimately because players preferred the traditional look and did not want that look in the fretboard. I personally saw at least 3 built Les Pauls with the Osage Orange Fretboards--2 of them were Natural and one with a dark stain. No clue what happened to those guitars. Also, no idea how many of those fretboard sized boards we sawed but it was a bunch. I am unclear what happened to them all--I suspect he burned most as firewood at some point (it burns very well). I wish I had one of those LPs. That is all, carry on, sorry about the zombie thread.

TomB'sox · #12 10-19-2021, 05:04 PM

I have a guitar built by John Kinnaird, his round top model which is like a small jumbo...2 piece Persimmon back that is quite stunning IMO.

persimmon1.jpg persimmon.jpg

It is a wonderful sounding guitar. I would put it more in the rosewood family than anything else. It is loud with lots of sustain and beautiful note separation and has a quick attack.

ssstewart · #13 10-19-2021, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

I have a guitar built by John Kinnaird, his round top model which is like a small jumbo...2 piece Persimmon back that is quite stunning IMO.

Attachment 63716 Attachment 63717

It is a wonderful sounding guitar. I would put it more in the rosewood family than anything else. It is loud with lots of sustain and beautiful note separation and has a quick attack.

that is beautiful Tom!!!!

TomB'sox · #14 10-19-2021, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssstewart

that is beautiful Tom!!!!

Thank you, I think it is quite stunning myself. I appreciate it. But, does show it is possible and does make a great guitar.

redir · #15 10-20-2021, 08:35 AM

I was lucky enough to score some persimmons a while back that is big enough for dreds. So far I have only used it for bindings, fret boards and bridges. It's a true ebony and as mentioned is hard as nails. It's also very beautiful especially if you get the black streaked stuff like in the photos above.

I have my local tree cutting friends keeping an eye out for it if it's big enough. That and Osage Orange. Both are difficult to find in such sizes.

The persimmons guitars I played were outstanding, lots of power and sustain. But of course they were made by a competent luthier too.

The wide board below is almost 9in wide and perfectly quarter sawn.