Segovia Diatonic Major and Minor Scales

[charles Tauber]

Here is a 1957 recording of Segovia playing the Chaconne from Bach's Partita No. 2 for violin.

To put it in context, prior to Segovia, few took the guitar to be a "serious" classical instrument. Segovia took a well-respected piece from the violin repertoire, the Chaconne, and played it publicly. In so doing, "proving" that "serious" classical music can be played on a guitar.

It should be obvious from the fast portions of the piece, the importance to playing this piece that scales have. The purpose of technical exercises is to develop the skills and abilities required for the music you want to play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cG_gps1BGo

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

In my opinion, yes, there is a reason to play them rest stroke. One of the differences between steel string fingerpicking and classical technique is the use of the rest stroke. It is, in my opinion, an essential tool in the classical guitar toolbox. It is, for example, a technique that allows one to emphasize individual notes more than others, such as bringing out a melody line.

The rest stroke and free stroke have slightly different physical mechanics. The rest stroke movement is largely from the big knuckles at the base of the fingers. The free stroke is much more from the second knuckle. Movement from the big knuckles can provide more power, more volume and can be used to produce a different sound/timbre.



You largely already know how to do free stroke. The development I recommend is in adding and mastering the rest stroke. If you want, you could practice them both with free stroke and rest stroke, but I'd recommend that most of your scale-practicing efforts be spent on rest stroke.

Be clear, however, that you can do whatever pleases you. What classical guitarists recognize as classical guitar playing is a fairly specific thing and involves fairly specific techniques that produce fairly specific sounds. You don't necessarily have to play with that technique or produce that specific sort of sound. However, if you listen to "typical" classical guitar music and want to sound like that and be able to do the things they do, there is a specific path that leads there. If that's what you want, you probably can't deviate too much from that to end up with that.

I asked in another discussion that if two players, one a "typical" steel string player, and the other a "typical" classical player, played the same piece of classical guitar music, what would the differences be in how the piece sounds? You choose what you want to sound like, what are the sounds that come out of the instrument you are playing.

One of the players I like to listen to is Michael Chapdelaine. His background is as a traditionally trained classical guitarist. It provides a good foundation for whatever styles of music one wants to play. He's built on and adapted his classical background to play a variety of music on both classical and steel string guitars. Here's one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu78nxzY3uk



You can, but I don't think it is a particularly "ordered" or "progressive" way of doing so. From a reading perspective, scales are more along the lines of specific notes scattered across the fingerboard.

Thanks Charles - noted on both counts.

I am a big fan of Chapdelaine's playing and if I was asked for one player who's tone I would most like to emulate it would be his.

[redir]

I should probably take a step back and practice scales more but I just hate it. When ever I am practicing scales I think about the pieces that I am working on and just go right back into learning them. I've always felt like practicing scales is a waste of time even though i know it's not.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

I am a big fan of Chapdelaine's playing and if I was asked for one player who's tone I would most like to emulate it would be his.

He paid his "dues" to obtain his abilities.

A musician's worst nightmare:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk

Many classical musicians have this experience of studying with "God" and bearing their wrath.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by redir

I should probably take a step back and practice scales more but I just hate it.

There used to be an advertisement on TV for American Express. There is some pleasant background music as the camera pans a lovely living room. There is a crackling fire in the fireplace, warm lighting, cozy looking furniture. The camera pans the room to one of the windows and zooms in. Through the window you can see that it is just nasty, cold and raining heavily. Through the window you can see Tiger Woods practicing his swing.

To me, that pretty much says it all: it takes uncommon dedication and hard work, often in adverse conditions, to reach an elite ability in nearly any human endeavour. In any human endeavour, there aren't that many people willing to work that hard at that endeavour to be that good at it.

That's okay. Not everyone who plays tennis wants to compete at Wimbledon; not everyone who gets on a bicycle wants to ride in the Tour de France; not everyone wading at the beach wants to be an Olympic swimmer. But, those that do don't get there by hitting a few balls with a racket, going for a leisurely ride once a week or swimming a few laps. They put in the work to reach their goals.

When ever I am practicing scales I think about the pieces that I am working on and just go right back into learning them.

Nothing wrong with that. Ultimately, it is about the music. Technical exercises are there to assist with obtaining the skills needed to allow you to play the music you want to play.

If one wanted to, say, play basic open chords, strum and sing along, playing scales is irrelevant since it doesn't better allow you to fingering those chords, strum or sing. Really, it's about knowing what you want and doing what's necessary to achieve that.

[Wrighty]

So I got to work on the first two scales this afternoon - very excited to have started.

C major - no real issues, but A min over 3 octaves is quite a challenge for the left hand.

In terms of right hand the first four (IM/MI/MA/AM) also fairly reasonable if I move slowly, but the outside two fingers (IA) is really awkward!

Anyway, had to pull myself off it after a while as it is strangely addictive (I know, I am weird..;-)

[Su_H.]

I searched the internet for the story I want to share but nothing comes up.

My High school guitar instructor shared a story about a man who was held captive for so many years. His captor learned that the man can play the guitar. Upon knowing this, the captor allowed the man/prisoner to play the guitar for 15 minutes a day. With such little time, the prisoner chose to strictly practice scales only and he did this for a few years until he was finally released.....and in his statement, he revealed that his guitar progress was so much greater in those few years than it was in the 20 - some odd years that he had been playing prior.

I'm just wondering....has anyone else heard this story?

[NormanKliman]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

...prior to Segovia, few took the guitar to be a "serious" classical instrument.

I’ve heard and read this over the years and I don’t understand. What about Tárrega, Sor and many others who were famous long before Segovia was born? Were they not respected in their time? What about Chopin allegedly saying, “Nothing is more beautiful than a guitar, except, possibly two.”

If this seems too much of a hijack, I can start a new thread, if you prefer.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Su_H.

I searched the internet for the story I want to share but nothing comes up.

My High school guitar instructor shared a story about a man who was held captive for so many years. His captor learned that the man can play the guitar. Upon knowing this, the captor allowed the man/prisoner to play the guitar for 15 minutes a day. With such little time, the prisoner chose to strictly practice scales only and he did this for a few years until he was finally released.....and in his statement, he revealed that his guitar progress was so much greater in those few years than it was in the 20 - some odd years that he had been playing prior.

I'm just wondering....has anyone else heard this story?

Does sound very much like just a story. Perhaps a practice motivation device used by your instructor. Assuming it's true the prisoner would probably have improved at playing scales anyway.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by NormanKliman

I’ve heard and read this over the years and I don’t understand. What about Tárrega, Sor and many others who were famous long before Segovia was born? Were they not respected in their time? What about Chopin allegedly saying, “Nothing is more beautiful than a guitar, except, possibly two.”

I'm not a historian nor was I alive then. However, my understanding is that the guitar was not regarded as a "serious" instrument on par with the violin, piano and other "classical" instruments. The guitar was very popular in Spain - hence the classical guitar often being referred to as a "Spanish guitar" - and the music played on the guitar tended to be regional. Tarrega, Sor and Segovia were Spanish.

In other parts of Europe, one likely wouldn't go to a guitar recital as one might have for violin, piano or similar instruments. It appears that Segovia was amongst the first to play/transcribe classical European repertoire for the guitar - such as Bach violin and 'cello music.

[NormanKliman]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I'm not a historian nor was I alive then. However, my understanding is that the guitar was not regarded as a "serious" instrument on par with the violin, piano and other "classical" instruments. The guitar was very popular in Spain - hence the classical guitar often being referred to as a "Spanish guitar" - and the music played on the guitar tended to be regional. Tarrega, Sor and Segovia were Spanish.

In other parts of Europe, one likely wouldn't go to a guitar recital as one might have for violin, piano or similar instruments. It appears that Segovia was amongst the first to play/transcribe classical European repertoire for the guitar - such as Bach violin and 'cello music.

Well, the guitar was also developed significantly in Italy. An example is Giuliani. He was born over 100 years before Segovia, he transcribed symphonic works for guitar and enjoyed success with his recitals and concerts. Closer to Segovia’s time but still well before him, Tárrega is another who transcribed classic works and was well known for his live performances. Since they and others composed many waltzes, mazurkas, etc., I don’t know if it’s accurate to say that most of their compositions were regional.

Please note, I’m not a historian, either, and I’m not trying to pick on you or Segovia. He was obviously one of the greats and I’m sure he was a groundbreaker, but I’d like to see some facts that support that idea.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by NormanKliman

... I’d like to see some facts that support that idea.

Facts would be nice, but I don't have many.

THIS HAS BEEN A GREAT THREAD: INFORMATIVE AND ENTERTAINING. THANK ALL OF YOU!

[NormanKliman]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Facts would be nice, but I don't have many.

I don’t either. Maybe in another thread we can try to draw some conclusions. The scales are interesting and an important part of the long history of the guitar, so thanks for the thread.

[Carey]

Originally Posted by Su_H.

I searched the internet for the story I want to share but nothing comes up.

My High school guitar instructor shared a story about a man who was held captive for so many years. His captor learned that the man can play the guitar. Upon knowing this, the captor allowed the man/prisoner to play the guitar for 15 minutes a day. With such little time, the prisoner chose to strictly practice scales only and he did this for a few years until he was finally released.....and in his statement, he revealed that his guitar progress was so much greater in those few years than it was in the 20 - some odd years that he had been playing prior.

I'm just wondering....has anyone else heard this story?

I think I know of that story, and that it has changed shape over time, as they tend to do.. it's likely about Julian Bream and his time in the British Army, and an earlier version of it can be found in one of Frederick Noad's method books.
I'll try to dig it out.