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  #46  
Old 01-27-2011, 04:23 AM
paulchevin paulchevin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
I do think you're being a little sticky about not renting one................ I just get the feeling that you are digging in your heels as an exercise in principle and cutting off your nose to spite your face. Sorry if that saying doesn't translate well. It's something we say here in the US to indicate that someone disadvantages him/herself in order to do harm to an adversary.
Let's remind ourselves about how this exchange developed.

The OP was running a shoot-out between 2 reasonably priced microphones. Having quite a bit of experience of using mics in this price range, I tried to give a bit of help and hopefully showed that the NT3 was likely to be the better of the two if allowance was made for its extended top end.

If you check back you'll find that I never once suggested it was the BEST microphone for the job - just the better of the two! Consequently, I'm at a loss to understand why you have pursued me over this and refused to acknowledge that the microphones you have mentioned are beyond the means of many people.

For some of us, renting even one decent microphone would account for close to half of our weekly income. Perhaps you will now understand why your attitude comes across as insensitive!

For the record, I would LOVE to try using some really top-end studio gear at some point - I am a scientist, so I do understand these things. Just now, though, I clearly live in a very different world from you. From reading other threads on this forum, I get the impression that I'm not the only one.

Paul
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  #47  
Old 01-27-2011, 10:03 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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no problem. go here. https://public.me.com/tyreeford look in the audio folder for the mic comparisons folder. There's an uncompressed schoepshyper wav file of my Martin. Actually the cmc641 is a supercardioid. My bad.

For compressed youtube audio (with reverb and at some point a phaser), try this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

And to Paul, I don't mean just ANY EXPENSIVE MIC. I mean SPECIFICALLY the cmc641.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #48  
Old 01-27-2011, 11:38 AM
paulchevin paulchevin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
And to Paul, I don't mean just ANY EXPENSIVE MIC. I mean SPECIFICALLY the cmc641.
In fact, the first microphone you suggested to me was the TLM 103. When I pointed out that it was too expensive, you pointed me instead to a microphone which was far more expensive still! I don't object at all to you telling us all what you consider to be the best microphones. Nor do I question your view........ in fact, I'm quite sure you're right. However, you also have to be sensitive to the different needs and financial resources of others.

Given that this was actually a thread about 2 specific reasonably priced microphones, it would have been nice to hear you give us the benefit of your considerable knowledge with respect to these particular models, presuming that you have used them. It would also have been nice to hear you acknowledge that there were bound to be some people who would not be able to afford the options you put forwards instead.

A couple of posts ago you accused me of digging my heels in. I'll leave it to others to judge who is really guilty of that.

Paul
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  #49  
Old 01-27-2011, 01:48 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Aloha Paul & the OP (where is the OP?)

Aloha Paul,

We're ALL "right" in this discussion. The give & take here is sometimes where most of the truth is found in defending our positions. So it's actually a good thing to NOT try to be right, just to express your truth & defend your position about this gear & it's applications. Others learn from the debate. Who cares what others acknowledge or think about it, really?

Like being able to afford a $100 vs. the $1743 it costs for a single CMC641. Obviously, that's not the mic for you or for most people (on price not the sound)... yet. But...being open to hearing it should be a part of anyone's gear search - buying it or not.

I don't know how old you are or how experienced with using signal chains. But I do know that I'm an old guy now & Ty's on his way. We probably have over 80+ years of experience between us in signal chains. Just trying to help.

What happens with me on these forums is that with the good & bad experiences, we truly want to help people so they can avoid the mistakes we made - & in the longrun, save money & time for those looking for clues. And I get plenty clues from everyone here too. Definitely! These forums are great!

Sometimes when players seem determined to make the same mistake (for whatever reason, financial or whatever - and I'm not saying YOU are making any mistakes, Paul), an edge can make its way into my posts, & sometimes, Ty's posts.

I know that when I want to help someone, they should at least meet me half way with an open mind. And be able to joust a bit on the facts about the equipment rather than stonewall over whether it's affordable or not. It's fun to joust with the facts & experience, & what if's of gear. Talking affordability is boring! What's possible is what's interesting.

Yes your price objection is absolutely valid, Paul - for you. I played through crappy to mediocre mic's for decades before opening my mind - AND WALLET - to the "better" that's available. That really changed everything so much for me that I want to share that experience with everyone here - beginner or expert, affordable or not. Even the OP should hear about it!

For example, a few years ago I heard the hypercardioid CMC641, looked at the challenges of my recording space, & then rented a pair from a Mainland store for a weekend ($75) shootout on my rig. It was worth it. I'd never heard my guitars sound like that before in almost 50 years of gigging.

It made such a difference that I started saving for a matched pair immediately. It took me almost two years to save that money, for those mic's, but I bought those CMC641's & haven't looked back.

That mic has made a huge difference in the quality of my recordings & music, & the way I hear acoustic guitar. And my recordings are completely NON-COMMERCIAL. I'm committed to the best sound I can get, & the tools that can help me get there.

One thing I've always tried to do is to pay for my signal chains with money I make from gigging instead of savings. In the last two years, I've been phasing out nightly gigging at my regular venues in favor of music & private parties, that don't pay. It's by choice at this stage of the game. So now, I have less to play with. Even so, I saved for & got those mic's. Once heard, I had to have a pair of my own. The name of the game is sound!

If I hadn't known, I wouldn't have been able to justify that expense at all, especially without gigging income. However, I was open enough to try the mic out first - even though I did not have the funds at the time - so that I could know the difference.

I think "being open" is the quality the Ty may be looking for in your responses here - to feel like his knowledge is being received & appreciated, acted on or not.

We're in the semantics stage now & this thread will be over soon because of it. Unless we change it. Let's do that Paul.

Let's talk about the qualities of the mic's the OP brought up & others mentioned. I hope that the OP is open to this hijacking here because I think there's some good info for him here too.

Note: Hey OP, how bout sharing & playing a demo piece that you know well next time & which is cleanly played & finished. For example, slower movements tend to show off a mic's properties much better than "uncleanly-played" tapped pieces. Just a suggestion from the guy who doesn't share music online. Ha!

Keep your sense of humor, guys!

"I went to my doctah the otha day, and I says to him, "Hey Doctah, I swallowed a whole bottle of sleeping pills, what should I do?!?

"He told me to 'Have a few drinks & get some rest!"

A Hui Hou Everyone!
alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 01-27-2011 at 02:56 PM.
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  #50  
Old 01-27-2011, 01:55 PM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Originally Posted by paulchevin View Post
In fact, the first microphone you suggested to me was the TLM 103. When I pointed out that it was too expensive, you pointed me instead to a microphone which was far more expensive still! I don't object at all to you telling us all what you consider to be the best microphones. Nor do I question your view........ in fact, I'm quite sure you're right. However, you also have to be sensitive to the different needs and financial resources of others.

Given that this was actually a thread about 2 specific reasonably priced microphones, it would have been nice to hear you give us the benefit of your considerable knowledge with respect to these particular models, presuming that you have used them. It would also have been nice to hear you acknowledge that there were bound to be some people who would not be able to afford the options you put forwards instead.

A couple of posts ago you accused me of digging my heels in. I'll leave it to others to judge who is really guilty of that.

Paul


Paul,

If you actually go back and read the thread, your assertion is out of context.

I really don't care what mic you use to record with. I will make my opinions known as I see fit. I encourage you to do the same.

Have a nice life. Please ignore me.

Ty Ford
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  #51  
Old 01-27-2011, 05:34 PM
paulchevin paulchevin is offline
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Alohachris,

Thanks for your comments....... and for attempting to mediate!

In fact, I'm probably of a similar age to you and as a scientist I am extremely open-minded. As I said, I would love to hear my guitar recorded through some really top-end gear, so my mind is most certainly "open" in that sense.

The truth is that even if I could afford to use one of the local studios (I do know some of the individuals involved), they are simply not using that type of equipment. They are actually making the same pragmatic decisions as me and hence "making do" with slightly less esoteric gear because they know they can still get adequate results........... and they are recording commercial music with it. Indeed, I can't find a single store in the UK that even sells the CMC641 - as far as I can tell, I would have to buy it from Germany!

Ultimately, though, I stuck to my guns in this thread because I felt there was an implicit assumption in some of the posts that those of us who haven't tried expensive gear are somehow "wrong". This makes no allowance for individual circumstances and the main reason why we do things the way we do - ie. cost.

Most people on these forums seem to understand that some individuals cannot afford an expensive guitar, even though both their playing and their enjoyment level would probably increase if they could. We clearly have a similar divide with recording gear. Let's all try to consider each others' different needs and constraints.

Paul
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  #52  
Old 01-28-2011, 08:45 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Paul,

You won't find Schoeps at the local retail store. Regardless, they enjoy worldwide distribution. Using Google I was able to find the Schoeps website. and the UK distributor, whom, should you care to contact, will be able to provide you with dealers. http://www.schoeps.de/en/distributors.

For US folks, here's another link: http://www.reddingaudio.com/schoeps/dealers.php

Your continued misinterpretation of my position and thinly veiled insults are poisonous to you, not me. As a professional energy worker, (http://web.mac.com/tyreeford/Site/Ty...Balancing.html)

I advise you to correct that before they result in permanent harm.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #53  
Old 01-28-2011, 11:53 AM
paulchevin paulchevin is offline
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Ty,

Having studied for a PhD and written a lot as part of my job, I am normally pretty careful in my choice of words.

I have reviewed the thread and do not believe that I have misrepresented it. Indeed, I tried my best throughout to give recognition to the points you were making. I also fully understand why you mentioned the CMC641, which was undoubtedly with the best of intentions, but you are completely missing the point I was making. All I was asking you to do throughout was just accept that I could not afford to go down that route.

As I said in my previous post, most members of this forum appear to understand when someone says they can only afford a relatively cheap guitar. We do not question their finances or their motives. Rather we respect their decision, bearing in mind that only they know what suits their circumstances. We also do not tell them to go out and buy (or rent) a Santa Cruz, as that would be inappropriate and might even be considered insensitive. I feel that we have a very similar situation here.

I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and obvious enthusiasm for expensive microphones and I KNOW they sound better. However, once I said I could not afford a TLM 103, that should have been the end of it - I said "no" for a very good reason and should not have had to justify it further. Instead, though, you kept on pressing me to rent some CMC641's, at considerable expense (if they are even available for rent in the UK). When I said I couldn't afford that either you accused me of digging my heels in. In so doing you were effectively questioning my judgement and suggesting that you knew better than me what was appropriate for my circumstances.

Your enthusiasm is commendable and it would be very silly for us to fall out. All I ask is that you don't continue to press when people have made it clear that they really can't afford it. They likelyhood is that they mean it.

Paul
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  #54  
Old 01-28-2011, 12:01 PM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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I'm done. (hmm, apparently the system needs at least 10 characters to accept a message)
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  #55  
Old 01-28-2011, 01:39 PM
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Excellent recordings can be made on quite inexpensive mikes and using expensive mikes does not mean you will have a good sounding recording. I am not voicing opinions on specific mikes at the moment but there are plenty of good recording affordable mikes. Check out past mike threads on this forum and "Show and Tell" threads of recordings (sometimes the mikes used are specified).
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  #56  
Old 01-28-2011, 02:10 PM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
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One of these is a Schoeps CMC64.

One is a CAD M179.

Two are in between those in price.

Does one of these tracks sound 10 times better than the others?

Does one of these tracks cause you to say "That would sound much better with a different microphone" or are the differences rather subtle?

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090626-F.wav
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090626-G.wav
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090626-H.wav
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090626-I.wav

Fran
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  #57  
Old 01-28-2011, 02:56 PM
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Interesting...

In order, best to last, I'd say F, I, G, H.

H seemed a little brash compared to the others. The rest all sounded very good.

PS: If it's no trouble can you pm me the models - or I'll just wait till later if you're going to announce it on the thread.
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  #58  
Old 01-28-2011, 03:43 PM
paulchevin paulchevin is offline
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Fran,

Thanks for posting the soundclips.

Like Moon, my choice (best to worst) is F, I, G, H. I don't think there's that much to choose between F and I, whilst the other two sound a bit brighter.

Having said that, I'm presuming that you could bring them all closer together in terms of sound with a little EQ.

Paul
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  #59  
Old 01-28-2011, 06:02 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Nice Work Fran.....But

Aloha Fran,

I've always liked that blind test. It is useful in proving the point about the varying degrees of "nice" among microphones of all quality.

But there is no way that you would ever grab even your excellent Shure KSM-44's from your mic locker when you have those incredible, un-matchable CMC641's looking up at you in all their Intel-gray splendor at your disposal, right Fran?

Smoothest, most accurate S/D on the planet, boys. Perfect for recording acoustic guitar.

Just havin' fun, brah!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 01-28-2011 at 06:10 PM.
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  #60  
Old 01-28-2011, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha Fran,

I've always liked that blind test. It is useful in proving the point about the varying degrees of "nice" among microphones of all quality.

But there is no way that you would ever grab even your excellent Shure KSM-44's from your mic locker when you have those incredible, un-matchable CMC641's looking up at you in all their Intel-gray splendor at your disposal, right Fran?

Smoothest, most accurate S/D on the planet, boys. Perfect for recording acoustic guitar.

Just havin' fun, brah!

alohachris
Let's here it. Post your best guitar recording you have done with those CMC641's.
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