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  #16  
Old 06-05-2019, 01:05 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mbroady View Post
So far I recorded a bunch of songs tracking the guitar and vocals separately and 2 songs with using the figure 8 set up, singing and playing at the same time.

Sonically the tracked songs do sound better but they do not have the synergy of the live performance.
I've done it both ways and have found it much harder to get a great performance doing both at the same time. But in the beginning I ran into the same issue as you: the separately tracked performance didn't have the synergy of the simultaneously tracked performance. The way I overcame it was to teach myself to sing silently. I mouth the words and do everything with my mouth and head and body that I'd do if I were actually singing except for the singing. It wasn't an easy skill to master but once I did, I was able to get the kind of synergy I wanted.

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Originally Posted by Mbroady View Post
However, When played back with a hard pan the live performance sounds great. When played in mono you can hear a small amount of phase issue. I think itís worth the small loss of fidelity considering its feel much better. And I will experiment with mic placement as well reversing the phase and/or EQ (good learning moments for me)
Panning hard like that might sound okay with the speakers in close proximity to each other but I can't imagine that's a good technique when the speakers have some space between them. To my ears, it would be very unnatural to have the guitar coming from one direction and the vocal from another.

As for the alignment issue, there are plugins for that. I use one called SoundRadix Auto-Align. It's quite simple to use and it really makes a difference.

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Originally Posted by Mbroady View Post
The other obsession is with the ability to tweek the pitch of the vocals when tracked separately. I have good pitch but not always perfect. But once again, I prefer the feel and vibe of the live takes and can live with a few slightly off pitch notes, as long as the emotional content is on. Ifs itís really noticeable I will just do another take.

As a side note, I tried using melodyne In polyphonic mode on the vocals (both guitar and voice are recorded in one stereo track. and ........) Iíll leave it as it is
I guess the technology is not there yet.
That should be some incentive for learning to track separately with synergy. Melodyne is a great tool but you're wanting it to fix just the vocals on a track with vocals and guitar and that doesn't sound all that workable since there will be times your voice and guitar are both sounding the same note in the same octave. When you fix one, you pull the other out of tune.
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  #17  
Old 06-06-2019, 05:43 AM
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Mbroady Mbroady is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I've done it both ways and have found it much harder to get a great performance doing both at the same time. But in the beginning I ran into the same issue as you: the separately tracked performance didn't have the synergy of the simultaneously tracked performance. The way I overcame it was to teach myself to sing silently. I mouth the words and do everything with my mouth and head and body that I'd do if I were actually singing except for the singing. It wasn't an easy skill to master but once I did, I was able to get the kind of synergy I wanted.
I do this in my head but I should make it more physical. This question is a bit off topic to the original question but are you using a click track when you track separately.

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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
.

Panning hard like that might sound okay with the speakers in close proximity to each other but I can't imagine that's a good technique when the speakers have some space between them. To my ears, it would be very unnatural to have the guitar coming from one direction and the vocal from another.

As for the alignment issue, there are plugins for that. I use one called SoundRadix Auto-Align. It's quite simple to use and it really makes a difference.
I was panning hard left and right then slowly brining the tracks to the center just as a reference to see how much phasing was happening. It’s really not bad but it is there. I will check out the program you mentioned for sure. I’m running Sonar platinum and am almost 100% sure they have an included plug in do that. Tonight when the rugrat goes to bed I will explore more.

In regards to mylodyne, it’s definitely limited in this application
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Last edited by Mbroady; 06-06-2019 at 06:36 AM.
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  #18  
Old 06-06-2019, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbroady View Post
I do this in my head but I should make it more physical. This question is a bit off topic to the original question but are you using a click track when you track separately.
Can't speak for Jim but I usually record separately and yes I use a click track.
Or depending on your DAW you may have a drum VI you can use also.

As far as a click and separate takes feeling unnatural at first, besides the "silent singing" Jim mentioned, ( which I realized I have always done also ) think of this somewhat related analogy. Back in old days when we learned to drive on a manual transmission. Trying to coordinate clutch, gas , braking , shift pattern, speed of of car , direction of car and other traffic etc. etc. was all very stilted and unnatural (Until after enough repetitions and miles it became natural ) this is very much the case of dubbed vocal recording
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Last edited by KevWind; 06-06-2019 at 07:03 AM.
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  #19  
Old 06-06-2019, 09:15 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbroady View Post
I do this in my head but I should make it more physical. This question is a bit off topic to the original question but are you using a click track when you track separately.
I use either a click track or a simple drum track. But that too was an acquired skill. The first time I sat in a studio to do some recording, the person who I was working with asked me to play to a click track. I'd never done it before and about a dozen attempts in the studio failed miserably and I gave up on it for a time. I think they failed in part because I didn't understand the advantages of playing to a click track so I wasn't all that motivated to get the hang of it.

The importance became clear when we began adding other instruments (bass, keyboards, etc). Adding anything else became quite a chore and took up so much more time because of all the editing we had to do to get things to line up. On top of that, on the songs that had a wider dynamic, I have a tendency to speed up play as I sing louder. I never noticed it when I performed but when hearing the song I recorded over and over again in the studio, the speed-ups became quite noticeable.

About halfway through that project I was determined to learn to play to a click and finally got comfortable with it. These days I won't record without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbroady View Post
I was panning hard left and right then slowly brining the tracks to the center just as a reference to see how much phasing was happening. Itís really not bad but it is there. I will check out the program you mentioned for sure. Iím running Sonar platinum and am almost 100% sure they have an included plug in do that. Tonight when the rugrat goes to bed I will explore more.
I never thought I was having any serious phasing problems but every time I use that plugin, stereo mic-ed guitar tracks sound noticeably better. I demoed it sometime last year and had it on my wishlist for months. I saw it on sale for $99 at some point and grabbed it. $99 for a very simple to use plugin that makes every stereo guitar track sound better? Yes please!

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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
As far as a click and separate takes feeling unnatural at first, besides the "silent singing" Jim mentioned, ( which I realized I have always done also ) think of this somewhat related analogy. Back in old days when we learned to drive on a manual transmission. Trying to coordinate clutch, gas , braking , shift pattern, speed of of car , direction of car and other traffic etc. etc. was all very stilted and unnatural (Until after enough repetitions and miles it became natural ) this is very much the case of dubbed vocal recording
Yes, it's definitely a skill that one has to practice to master. I was uncomfortable and resistant to it at first but I came around when I realized how much more difficult everything else became when not playing to a click.
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  #20  
Old 06-06-2019, 09:27 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Regarding click, my m.o. has evolved to this:

1. Print a click.
2. Do a quick single-mic guitar/vocal "roadmap" track.
3. Mute the click except for the countoff and any significant stops.
4. Start tracking the actual "keeper" stuff.

Seems like doing it this way, the feel is more me and less metronome.
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