K&K Pickups: why all the love?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by TenorAtLarge

I figure a Shadow Nanomag (ala Epiphone) would be a nice, non-invasive alternative to the under-neck pickup of the Taylor. The hard one to figure out is the body sensors... does ANYONE make those aftermarket? Or even better- does anyone do a full package that handles all of this aftermarket?

The shadow is a small mag pickup, but that doesn't mean it sounds exactly like the Taylor neck pickup. Also note that the nanomag has some pretty severe restrictions, geometrically, with guitars it will fit. The space between fretboard end and sound hole has to be exactly right, and the string height above sound board has to be right. if your guitar is right, it could work. You could also just use something like a Rare Earth, or another other soundhole pickup.

The Taylor sensors are magnetic - probably the closest thing would be the Schertler Dyn-G - you'd need two of them, plus an onboard blender to blend the sensors and the mag. You'd be looking at a very pricey and complex system. The 2nd closest "sensor" would probably be something like the K&K.

Incidentally, a mag+K&K is a nice combo, very similar to what Michael Hedges used (Sunrise+Frap), and also at least in the ballpark of the ES system (mag+SBT).

I think the issue you're running into is not so much that K&Ks sound bad, as that (as Aloha Chris points out), all pickups are poor representations of the guitar. There is no perfect system, arguably not even any really good systems, only shades of "not terrible". If you want a great acoustic sound, use a mic and a great PA in a great sounding room. Everything else is a compromise. But pickups are a necessary evil if you want to be heard in most situations. Most listeners don't care, and wouldn't even notice the difference between different pickups. People pay good money to see performers every night using all kinds of pickups, including the K&K, and most listeners are happy as long as the music's good.

[TenorAtLarge]

Dang! Those Schertler pickups are like five-hundo a piece! I bet I could fly to El Cajon and bribe a Taylor employee into selling me a whole Expression System for less than it would cost me to assemble that thing piecemeal...

Tell you guys what- next time someone guts a Taylor to throw in a K&K, I call dibs on the parts!

[Muskrat]

I play guitar and upright bass and K&K by far is the best upright pickup you can find. Amazing sound. As far as guitar I just have not had luck with them. I believe they get a lot of love from people that play them at home but when it comes to playing them live they don't have it.

Again I have been playing K&K bass pickups for a while and they are the best but their guitar pickups don't jive with what I like.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by Muskrat

I play guitar and upright bass and K&K by far is the best upright pickup you can find. Amazing sound. As far as guitar I just have not had luck with them. I believe they get a lot of love from people that play them at home but when it comes to playing them live they don't have it.

Again I have been playing K&K bass pickups for a while and they are the best but their guitar pickups don't jive with what I like.

I use them for playing live in 4 different Martins and in my mandolin. Both of the other guys in my band use them live. The guys in the band I sit in with use them live.

We all use K&K Pure XLR preamps. We all like them.

I don't recommend ANY undersaddle pickups simply because they mess with the vibration sound path when you're playing unplugged.

I don't use my K&K at home. I don't understand people who have a great acoustic guitar and sit around the house playing it through an amp...



P.S. Not liking them is one thing - different strokes, etc. But for the OP to have had such a bad reaction - he had to have had an improper install AND/OR used really improperly matched preamps set really poorly.

What kind of tour was this, by the way? What kind of music? ... just out of curiosity...

If you want a great acoustic sound, use a mic and a great PA in a great sounding room. Everything else is a compromise.

And Doug reminds us of the truism!

I used mics for the first 20 years I played, then used UST for the next 20; now there's something better in the way of pickups that doesn't sit under the saddle... several, actually. and that's what I've been using the past decade. But mics still work best IF the situation is OK for them... not all are.

[TenorAtLarge]

I was in a pop-rock band at the time and we were doing an acoustic tour, kydave. Venues were all over the place in terms of size and PA... indoor, outdoor, coffee shops, clubs, festivals... it was really all over the place.

Here's a clip to give you an idea of what we sounded like on that tour:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gu7n49f-xo

I'm singing lead and playing a borrowed Ibanez, while my Seagull is being pounded on by my brother. You should be able to tell pretty easily that my style of playing is... shall we say... unrefined.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by kydave

But for the OP to have had such a bad reaction - he had to have had an improper install AND/OR used really improperly matched preamps set really poorly.

It's also possible the guitar was just a bad match, SBTs vary a lot with guitars. But I've also seen some odd behavior with incorrect installs. You get get the disks falling over the bridge plate, being hit by the ball end of the string, and so on. One wacky case I saw was a luthier who installed them on the guitar with one disk far, far to each end of the bridge plate, and one behind the bridge plate. Why, I have no idea, but the guitar sounded ok when plugged in at home at low volume, and got weird: tinny/phasey with feedback when played at performance volumes. K&Ks are pretty forgiving, I have one guitar where I placed 2 perfectly, and the third slipped, oops. Still sounds great, so I haven't fixed it. But there are clearly some placements that won't work out.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by TenorAtLarge

Only my own. Now mind you, I've since sold that guitar off... I simply wasn't going to go through another day on tour lugging around a guitar that I couldn't use during my set.

I tried a couple of different preamps from other musicians at the various venues I played... every time, it was just a much louder version of the same fuzzy fart sound.

Now I acknowledge that any improperly installed pickup is going to sound bad, and it would seem like this was the case with mine based on what everyone is saying... I just didn't have the time to spare to have a random luthier I didn't know get up in its guts and do a reinstall. I'll just say this much- even properly installed, they sound like a bit of a hassle once the signal is outside of that endpin...

Now tenor, I always appreciate a good educational and geeked out thread as much as anyone else but I confess confusion surrounding farts: first they were wet and now they are fuzzy?

[mwalk]

So many people say the UST alters the tone of the instrument unplugged. I have a Santa Cruz OM Grand with a Fishman Matrix installed. I'd give $1000 to anyone who could, by ear, pick it out of a line-up of other unplugged OM Grands.

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by kydave

I don't recommend ANY undersaddle pickups simply because they mess with the vibration sound path when you're playing unplugged.


P.S. Not liking them is one thing - different strokes, etc. But for the OP to have had such a bad reaction - he had to have had an improper install AND/OR used really improperly matched preamps set really poorly.

Hmmm.... I've played many, many guitars before and after having undersaddles installed and, in my opinion, this idea that an undersaddle affects the unplugged sound is more about knowing something is under the saddle rather than actual noticeable differences in tone. Case in point - Pierre Bensusan and Martin Simpson, both exceptional players known for their ear for tone (unplugged and plugged) both use undersaddle pickups (admittedly, live Pierre adds a mic and Martin adds an sbt, but the point is, if undersaddles ruined acoustic tone, I don't think they would use them).

A properly installed undersaddle (even the soft type such as lr bags element/highlanders) shouldn't change the sound.

And then you say it's okay if you don't like the pickup, but if you really don't like it you must be doing something wrong... Maybe the OP just really didn't like the pickup, just like you really don't like undersaddles? Is that so hard to believe?

[Doubleneck]

I finally took the K&K plunge cause my new acoustic needed a system and thought their had to be something to all the love. I had tried a bunch of systems. Two things I did was get a professional to install and bought the pro system with the internal condensor mic. Awesome.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by TenorAtLarge

I was in a pop-rock band at the time and we were doing an acoustic tour, kydave. Venues were all over the place in terms of size and PA... indoor, outdoor, coffee shops, clubs, festivals... it was really all over the place.

Here's a clip to give you an idea of what we sounded like on that tour:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gu7n49f-xo

I'm singing lead and playing a borrowed Ibanez, while my Seagull is being pounded on by my brother. You should be able to tell pretty easily that my style of playing is... shall we say... unrefined.

I think the K&K is the best sounding set up by far........for solo acoustic and/or singer songwriter gigs. For a more aggressive playing style and the need to have a "punchy" sound, I find them less desirable. For that a ust through a fishman aura is a "Go to" for me. K&K makes a ust combo, but as some say they prefer not to have a ust in there guitar. I had the 3 source set up in a guitar (mini/mic/ust) and it was amazing when it was plugged in, and blended. Not sure if it was the weight of the pre amp or the ust but it did kill the sound acoustically. Plugged in....WOW. Some of the worst sounding acoustic guitars I have heard sounded amazing plugged in.

All the best with you music.......nice vibe.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think the issue you're running into is not so much that K&Ks sound bad, as that (as Aloha Chris points out), all pickups are poor representations of the guitar. There is no perfect system, arguably not even any really good systems, only shades of "not terrible".

Perfectly said. A good reason not to ask for pickup advice or at least not to expect any clear answer.

Another good quote from Frank Zappa: "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar" :~)

[stephenT]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Another good quote from Frank Zappa: "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar" :~)

Remember Frank played electric guitar. All he had to do was plug in.

The folks that repost that quote need to realize Frank was a tinkerer, always messing with different guitars and modifications.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think the issue you're running into is not so much that K&Ks sound bad, as that (as Aloha Chris points out), all pickups are poor representations of the guitar. There is no perfect system, arguably not even any really good systems, only shades of "not terrible". If you want a great acoustic sound, use a mic and a great PA in a great sounding room. Everything else is a compromise. But pickups are a necessary evil if you want to be heard in most situations. Most listeners don't care, and wouldn't even notice the difference between different pickups. People pay good money to see performers every night using all kinds of pickups, including the K&K, and most listeners are happy as long as the music's good.

And most good players are happy as long as their sound is "good".

For me "good" isn't so much about my guitar sounding just like it does when I plug it in as it does unplugged.

I just need a full, clear, deep, resonant, inspiring electric sound that turns me on and helps me feel comfortable, confident, creative and feel like playing.

I have four guitars with K&K's and I run them through RedEyes and a nice PA and I love that sound.

My other acoustic guitar has a Baggs M1 and I love that sound too...even though it is quite unlike the sound of that guitar unplugged.

When I plug my Stratocasters and ES-335's into my old Fender tube amps they sound nothing like they sound unplugged - and that's a very good thing.

[kydave]

if undersaddles ruined acoustic tone, I don't think they would use them.

A properly installed undersaddle (even the soft type such as lr bags element/highlanders) shouldn't change the sound.

I didn't say they ruin the tone.

I do say they affect the tone.

Consider the extreme ends of the spectrum:

A. A exact fitting shim under your bone saddle, shim made of bone.

B. An inexact fitting shim under your bone saddle, shim made of rubber.

Do you doubt that B would negatively affect the sound?