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  #16  
Old 04-07-2011, 07:44 AM
jalbert jalbert is offline
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May I suggest posting your source, and the year the figures are for? I agree with you both that Taylor's income there seems low. For a figure of 75,000 guitars/year (which I heard was the number within the last several years), that means a per-unit income of $285 which just seems low considering the range of prices their guitars have. And they currently have more than 320 employees, too. The dust jacket from Bob Taylor's "Guitar Lessons" book (released earlier this year) says Taylor has over 500 employees. That's split between El Cajon and Tecate, but I don't know how.
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  #17  
Old 04-07-2011, 08:18 AM
Alexrkstr Alexrkstr is offline
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Originally Posted by jalbert View Post
May I suggest posting your source, and the year the figures are for? I agree with you both that Taylor's income there seems low. For a figure of 75,000 guitars/year (which I heard was the number within the last several years), that means a per-unit income of $285 which just seems low considering the range of prices their guitars have. And they currently have more than 320 employees, too. The dust jacket from Bob Taylor's "Guitar Lessons" book (released earlier this year) says Taylor has over 500 employees. That's split between El Cajon and Tecate, but I don't know how.
Yes - I got all my data from CapitalIQ. My guess is that CapitalIQ's information has not been updated in a while.
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  #18  
Old 04-07-2011, 08:26 AM
Alexrkstr Alexrkstr is offline
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Originally Posted by jalbert View Post
May I suggest posting your source, and the year the figures are for? I agree with you both that Taylor's income there seems low. For a figure of 75,000 guitars/year (which I heard was the number within the last several years), that means a per-unit income of $285 which just seems low considering the range of prices their guitars have. And they currently have more than 320 employees, too. The dust jacket from Bob Taylor's "Guitar Lessons" book (released earlier this year) says Taylor has over 500 employees. That's split between El Cajon and Tecate, but I don't know how.
Also listed as 21.4 millioni in Hoovers
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  #19  
Old 04-07-2011, 08:33 AM
Alexrkstr Alexrkstr is offline
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Also listed as 21.4 millioni in Hoovers
Interesting, looked up the info in OneSource and it says its 377.6 million and 400 employees.
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  #20  
Old 04-07-2011, 08:58 AM
enalnitram enalnitram is offline
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Originally Posted by Alexrkstr View Post
Interesting, looked up the info in OneSource and it says its 377.6 million and 400 employees.
I didn't know about onesource. but I use "referenceUSA" (from "infogroup / referencedivision"). the data must be the same as onesource. they say 400 employees and $377,600,000 in sales. the figure was posted in feb 2011, so I'm assuming it is a 2010 figure.

also according to refusa, the number of employees has gone down, just a little. 415 in 2008, to 400 in 2010.

it's hard to estimate what taylor's overhead is or what their profit is. it's a private company.

Business Expenditures 2010
Accounting Over $25,000
Advertising Over $250,000
Contract Labor Over $500,000
Insurance Over $100,000
Legal Over $25,000
Management/Administration Over $100,000
Office Equipment & Supplies Over $250,000
Package/Container Over $50,000
Payroll & Benefits Over $10 Million
Purchased Print Over $25,000
Rent & Leasing Over $500,000
Technology Over $50,000
Telecommunications Over $250,000
Utilities Over $100,000
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  #21  
Old 04-07-2011, 09:17 AM
Alexrkstr Alexrkstr is offline
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Originally Posted by enalnitram View Post
I didn't know about onesource. but I use "referenceUSA" (from "infogroup / referencedivision"). the data must be the same as onesource. they say 400 employees and $377,600,000 in sales. the figure was posted in feb 2011, so I'm assuming it is a 2010 figure.

also according to refusa, the number of employees has gone down, just a little. 415 in 2008, to 400 in 2010.

it's hard to estimate what taylor's overhead is or what their profit is. it's a private company.

Business Expenditures 2010
Accounting Over $25,000
Advertising Over $250,000
Contract Labor Over $500,000
Insurance Over $100,000
Legal Over $25,000
Management/Administration Over $100,000
Office Equipment & Supplies Over $250,000
Package/Container Over $50,000
Payroll & Benefits Over $10 Million
Purchased Print Over $25,000
Rent & Leasing Over $500,000
Technology Over $50,000
Telecommunications Over $250,000
Utilities Over $100,000
Sounds much more comprehensive. It would be fun to value Taylor if we had time. Do you think we can come up with a list of comparables? I'm sure we could make a really interesting project out of this
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  #22  
Old 04-07-2011, 10:01 AM
Alexrkstr Alexrkstr is offline
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Found something on Fender/Taylor:

"Starting Jan. 1, El Cajon-based Taylor Guitars plans to assume control of its European distribution through its own European-based offices and warehouse in Amsterdam.

A company statement said the Netherlands headquarters will support operations including sales, distribution, customer service and factory-level repair for Taylor product owners throughout Europe. The move follows a distribution agreement with Fender Musical Instruments Corp., which began in 2008 and covers the European market.

The Netherlands offices will be staffed with full-time Taylor employees.

Taylor Guitars was founded in 1974. Its acoustic and electric guitars have been used by leading musicians, including Dave Matthews, Jason Mraz, Prince and Taylor Swift."

Cited from:
San Diego Business Journal
20 December 2010
By Hirsh, Lou
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  #23  
Old 04-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by Alexrkstr View Post

I also think its interesting that GE Capital financed Baldwin (as they finance Taylor). Even though I don't think that Taylor will have to raise capital or is interested in going public, I think it will be interesting what the next five years, where the music instruments business is expected to grow at 5% will have for us.
I believe GE Capital provides financing for purchasers of Taylor guitars and may provide financing for dealers but, if I'm not mistaken, Taylor Guitars has no debt.
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  #24  
Old 04-07-2011, 12:35 PM
enalnitram enalnitram is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexrkstr View Post
Sounds much more comprehensive. It would be fun to value Taylor if we had time. Do you think we can come up with a list of comparables? I'm sure we could make a really interesting project out of this
I don't know if it's going to be possible. you probably know much more than i do. correct me if I'm wrong, but for private companies I think these figures are provided by the companies themselves, and thru the use of extensive legalese or provisioning, aren't they kind of able to report anything they like (within reason)? the vague ranges would make any estimates based upon them be rather wild.
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  #25  
Old 04-07-2011, 12:38 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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I'd be interested in knowing the percentage of market share that Taylor and Marin have but I haven't been able to find any figures on that. I believe Taylor has the dominant market share in for the acoustic-electric guitar category based on what Listug said in his Wood & Steel column last year.

I also read that the Taylor T5, despite being on the market for a compartively short amount of time, already outsells the ES-335.
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  #26  
Old 04-07-2011, 12:59 PM
skyver skyver is offline
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Taylor guitars recently started appearing in the local shops here in Slovenia.
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  #27  
Old 04-07-2011, 01:19 PM
Alexrkstr Alexrkstr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enalnitram View Post
I don't know if it's going to be possible. you probably know much more than i do. correct me if I'm wrong, but for private companies I think these figures are provided by the companies themselves, and thru the use of extensive legalese or provisioning, aren't they kind of able to report anything they like (within reason)? the vague ranges would make any estimates based upon them be rather wild.
enalnitram - if we wanted to calculate the enterprise value of Taylor using discounted cash flows, we would need much more information (like sales, operating profits, expenses, overhead, depreciation, taxes, etc).

However, if we have limited information as we do now, we could look at precedent transactions of similar companies that have been bought out and obtain a range. We could also do an average weight of that with current, public comparable companies (not many).

If I had all this information I would have a blast valuating Taylor [yes, I am a nerd].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
I'd be interested in knowing the percentage of market share that Taylor and Marin have but I haven't been able to find any figures on that. I believe Taylor has the dominant market share in for the acoustic-electric guitar category based on what Listug said in his Wood & Steel column last year.

I also read that the Taylor T5, despite being on the market for a compartively short amount of time, already outsells the ES-335.
HH - that's interesting and I can actually believe that. Do you remember where you saw that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyver View Post
Taylor guitars recently started appearing in the local shops here in Slovenia.
Yep, makes sense. Taylor expanded operations based in Amsterdam at the beginning of this year. They also highlight their European warranty on their website this month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
I believe GE Capital provides financing for purchasers of Taylor guitars and may provide financing for dealers but, if I'm not mistaken, Taylor Guitars has no debt.
HH - I think that is accurate, and them not having any debt is plausible. They have bee in operations for more than 3 decades.

I think they're going to continue to grow in the next few years. From the analysis that I read about the Music Instruments industry, it looks promising (despite the used instruments market, which I thought would have a bigger impact on the companies).
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  #28  
Old 04-07-2011, 01:25 PM
enalnitram enalnitram is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexrkstr View Post
enalnitram - if we wanted to calculate the enterprise value of Taylor using discounted cash flows, we would need much more information (like sales, operating profits, expenses, overhead, depreciation, taxes, etc).

However, if we have limited information as we do now, we could look at precedent transactions of similar companies that have been bought out and obtain a range. We could also do an average weight of that with current, public comparable companies (not many).

If I had all this information I would have a blast valuating Taylor [yes, I am a nerd].
thanks for that. I've gotten used to thinking of valuation as something that needs to be quick because in my work I'm forced to do it on dozens of companies a day. as a result I haven't learned to be thorough or to practice what others do.
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  #29  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:14 PM
jalbert jalbert is offline
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Oh, I bet there are more than a few folks sitting in offices/cubicles on Gillespie Way right now with bemused smirks on their faces...
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  #30  
Old 04-08-2011, 12:08 AM
Alexrkstr Alexrkstr is offline
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Originally Posted by jalbert View Post
Oh, I bet there are more than a few folks sitting in offices/cubicles on Gillespie Way right now with bemused smirks on their faces...
not that big of a challenge to value a company, but I'm sure there are guys with smirks thinking that we can't
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