K&K + Voiceprint low level signal

[Villamarzia]

Hi, just got a voiceprint (probably I'm among the very first ones in Europe) and I'm testing it on a K&K equipped Lowden. Probably because of the pickup installation or probably because of the quite thick rosewood soundplate that comes with modern Lowdens, the signal is pretty weak. However, with the VP this is more an issue than with other preamps. When I record a VP the mic is at 40-50% of the gain, while the pickup is 10-20%, barely making to led the lights. I guess this is not optimal for recording an IR. With other guitars/pickups (Lyric, Barbera, another a bit hotter K&K) the mic signal is however always a tad stronger than the pickup. I'm thinking to put a sort of basic preamp/booster in front of the VP, both for IR generation and play back. I'm leaning towards a Lehle sunday driver which can be found easily for 50-60 bucks. What do you think? Am I doing something wrong? Have you had the same issue? thx

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

Hi, just got a voiceprint (probably I'm among the very first ones in Europe) and I'm testing it on a K&K equipped Lowden. Probably because of the pickup installation or probably because of the quite thick rosewood soundplate that comes with modern Lowdens, the signal is pretty weak. However, with the VP this is more an issue than with other preamps. When I record a VP the mic is at 40-50% of the gain, while the pickup is 10-20%, barely making to led the lights. I guess this is not optimal for recording an IR. With other guitars/pickups (Lyric, Barbera, another a bit hotter K&K) the mic signal is however always a tad stronger than the pickup. I'm thinking to put a sort of basic preamp/booster in front of the VP, both for IR generation and play back. I'm leaning towards a Lehle sunday driver which can be found easily for 50-60 bucks. What do you think? Am I doing something wrong? Have you had the same issue? thx

Actually the lights during training don’t always light up as much as I would expect. I assumed it’s just how the app is. It would be interesting to hear from other users but I do not think it is a problem with your pickup.

[Eucatastrophe]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Actually the lights during training don’t always light up as much as I would expect. I assumed it’s just how the app is. It would be interesting to hear from other users but I do not think it is a problem with your pickup.

I’ve had the same experience with the pickup output being lower than the mic. I’ll have to ask Caleb at LR Baggs about this. Even when I created my VP with the Lyric (active pickup) the lights indicated that the mic was hotter. With the passive M1 sound hole pickup the output was even less.

That said it only took a few adjustments with the VP level to make the the volume of the VP and PU match.

I am super happy with the results I’m getting with my McIlroy AP25 + Lyric as well as my Taylor 712 12 fret + ES2.

[Villamarzia]

I have just tried to insert a K&K preamp in front of the VP and I like the result much more. The tone is more articulated, clean and dynamic, like when you have a better gain stage. I tested it only via headphone however. I tend to think that the VP is not meant to act as a proper preamp but the level parameter are just to balance the signal.. at least with passive pickups..

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

I have just tried to insert a K&K preamp in front of the VP and I like the result much more. The tone is more articulated, clean and dynamic, like when you have a better gain stage. I tested it only via headphone however. I tend to think that the VP is not meant to act as a proper preamp but the level parameter are just to balance the signal.. at least with passive pickups..

I will have to try this.

[Villamarzia]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

I will have to try this.

Please, let us know. I have created a new voiceprint making sure to match the signal strength between pickup and mic and kept exactly the same levels afterwards in playback.

[Eucatastrophe]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

Please, let us know. I have created a new voiceprint making sure to match the signal strength between pickup and mic and kept exactly the same levels afterwards in playback.

Did the gain stage change the pickup output level on the vpdi? Was it closer to the mic output ? Thanks

[Villamarzia]

Originally Posted by Eucatastrophe

Did the gain stage change the pickup output level on the vpdi? Was it closer to the mic output ? Thanks

Yes, I set it to match the mic and then kept it at the same level.

[Eucatastrophe]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

Yes, I set it to match the mic and then kept it at the same level.

Nice! I was hoping to use my old passive LR Baggs IBeam and used a gain stage too because I couldn’t get a strong enough signal without it. But there was just too much white noise from the gain stage. I’m glad it worked out for you.

I’ve been thinking about installing the K&K or Ultratonic in my McIlroy so I can just set it and forget it. Would love to know how you think it sounds in a live setting!

[Eucatastrophe]

You are right that the VPDI is not truly a preamp like the Venue. Caleb from LR Baggs confirmed that it does not actually have a gain stage. This was done to create a compatibility for a wide range of instruments. It seems that we’re supposed to make up for the level discrepancies after the VP is created within the app. But super low output pickups like the IBeam just can’t be brought up enough without a proper gain stage. Overall though I’ve heard that most folks have really liked the K&K and Vpdi combo! But from what you’ve said maybe they’d like it better with the gain stage!?!

[AeroUSA]

I tried it. I don’t think it made any difference and I still had to turn up the Voiceprint level afterwards.

[Villamarzia]

Originally Posted by Eucatastrophe

You are right that the VPDI is not truly a preamp like the Venue. Caleb from LR Baggs confirmed that it does not actually have a gain stage. This was done to create a compatibility for a wide range of instruments. It seems that we’re supposed to make up for the level discrepancies after the VP is created within the app. But super low output pickups like the IBeam just can’t be brought up enough without a proper gain stage. Overall though I’ve heard that most folks have really liked the K&K and Vpdi combo! But from what you’ve said maybe they’d like it better with the gain stage!?!

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

I tried it. I don’t think it made any difference and I still had to turn up the Voiceprint level afterwards.

I am not sure I've explained one thing correctly: I did put a preamp in front of the VP while creating a voiceprint, making sure the levels mic and pickup were a match. After creating the voiceprint, I kept the preamp in front of the VP and the result was better to my ears. Based on this, I think the VP is best after a real preamp, which might be also an Align Session pedal, as it has a gain stage. @Aerousa: did you remove the preamp in playback mode? and which pickup and preamp have you used? Because for me the difference was pretty obvious.

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

I am not sure I've explained one thing correctly: I did put a preamp in front of the VP while creating a voiceprint, making sure the levels mic and pickup were a match. After creating the voiceprint, I kept the preamp in front of the VP and the result was better to my ears. Based on this, I think the VP is best after a real preamp, which might be also an Align Session pedal, as it has a gain stage. @Aerousa: did you remove the preamp in playback mode? and which pickup and preamp have you used? Because for me the difference was pretty obvious.

Ah yes I did remove it. I will try again.