Custom carbonfiber wood hybrid

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by printer2

I took a quick look, well at least tried to you have a lot there. Thought you might start small and work on getting one thing right and build on that in the future. Taylor guitars would be hard pressed to deliver all that you are offering in a reasonable period of time. I must admit, don't know much about the crowd funding thing, maybe this is the norm. I really don't know what to say.

I have 2 seperate composite companies on standby, 1 company can supply 10 bodies per week at the quality of yacht components and windturbine blades. This way i can deliver in a timely manner, however there is only 1 sale, so i don`t see that volume happening any time soon.

If this fails, i can relaunch with a lot cheaper guitars, but the setup costs have to come from somewhere so the total would have to be alot higher. If that fails i will sell everything i own and try to build a good mold and a few guitars, then sell them and go from there. I already struggled without resources for 10 years, so i hoped to avoid another 10 years with this campaign...

Wood is subtractive manufactering so you can start with a piece of wood and a 5 dollar chisel. Composites are additive manufacturing so you start with nothing, the mold can go up to 10000 dollar. The wooden acoustic guitar luthier would make 1 per month, with this system i could make 20 per month at insane quality. But as i said, there are no sales, barely any page visitors, you are supposed to have a marketing budget for this. Crowdfunding is infected with fake grassroots, that already have backers, and a 20000 dollar marketing budget. I actually need this money to be able to continue...

The battle isnt lost, but its not looking well. I had hoped on more response with a Ducth designer, a handpaint artist, a grammy award winning international guitar player, selling 3000 euro guitars for 1400. Times are tough for everybody financially, and to commit to such an ammount people want to play the guitars, touch them, feel them...

[PeterF]

Like Printer2, I am also fairly unfamiliar with crowdfunding and how it works, but I'm assuming you know what you're doing and have no questions with that.
What I don't understand is where you are getting your figures from. $10000 for a mould?? I trained as a boatbuilder and am very familiar with fibreglass and carbon etc. Why don't you get some mdf parts cnc cut for a plug (about $100 maybe) cover the whole thing in body filler, fair it all over and make a fibreglass mould from that? Yes, it may only last for 100 guitars instead of 10000, but at that price it's easy and cheap to replace. You only need aluminium moulds if you're heat curing, and carbon does not need heat curing unless you're using pre-pregs, which would be way over the top for a guitar body.
I know you said you have no money, but if you had started with slightly smaller ambitions, you could have done the crowdfunding campaign for a much lower goal and had a lot more chance of reaching it. It sounds to me like you're less interested in making guitars as starting a big company. I really like what you are trying to do, and I think it's a shame that you seem to be focusing on the wrong things.

[printer2]

And I don't understand having a 20k marketing budget but (when I looked when you posted the funding page) only a little above 1k for building. But then again I never was much of a business type.

[rogthefrog]

There's also the open question of whether super-duper, aviation- or wind-turbine- or yacht-grade CF does anything for the guitar's tone, compared to cheaper options. It's a leap of faith.

"Better" (more expensive, rare) materials don't automatically make a better guitar. You could make a guitar out of beautiful, rare African ironwood b/s and a curly cherry or quilted maple top and I bet it would likely sound awful.

Koen: the software startup industry has adopted the concept of "MVP" or minimum viable product, together with "lean startup" principles. The idea is to spend just enough time and money and build the smallest possible version of a product to prove product-market fit. The most successful MVPs are polished enough to look serious and professional to potential users (I.E. not so bare they would deter anybody from using them), but bare bones, with very few features and only one variant targeting one specific use case.

As a concrete example: the MVP of a mobile app typically only works on only one platform E.g. Android phones; it may look funny or not run at all on tablets, and there's no iPhone or iPad version; there may not be an option to buy stuff in the app and instead the app sends you to a website to buy things; etc.

I believe you would be more successful and more attractive to investors if you tried the MVP approach like:

* forget the multiple top finishes. Do one, with the most appeal. Drop the desert/distressed option. Do you know anyone who says "this guitar is great, but I won't buy it because it doesn't look like I dragged out through the Sahara desert with my truck."? Me neither.
* do one rosette. Not two or ten. One.
* do one bridge.
* forget the colored CF options. One of the world's most successful industrialists supposedly said "You can have any color you want as long as it's black." Do that.
* forget the $10k tooling--you haven't proved that more than one person is willing to buy this guitar. Why tool up to build 1,000 when you don't know if you'll ever sell one? You also haven't proved the fancy CF is a better option that justifies the upgrade. Go with the less fancy options first as suggested by many before like PeterF above. Make a few, sell them, and buy the fancy mold with those proceeds.

So far you've proved one thing: you can make a guitar-shaped object with a composite body and a wood top that sounds like a guitar. That's good, but the world already knows that--Ovation and others have done it before. And guess what, Ovation went out of business. It's going to take a serious effort to prove 1) you can do it better than Charlie Kaman and 2) players actually want to buy your guitars. Paradoxically, the way to prove that and earn backers' trust is by going small first and improve incrementally.

Of course I could be totally wrong. But the beauty of the MVP is that you'd find out quickly and cheaply. You said your campaign isn't doing great, and you're stuck in a maximalist pattern--you can't really remove stuff now, so the only way to go is adding more options or promises, which makes it even more difficult to deliver on.

Tl;Dr you're asking people to fund a bunch of things but haven't proved it's a good idea to anyone yet.

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by PeterF

Like Printer2, I am also fairly unfamiliar with crowdfunding and how it works, but I'm assuming you know what you're doing and have no questions with that.
What I don't understand is where you are getting your figures from. $10000 for a mould?? I trained as a boatbuilder and am very familiar with fibreglass and carbon etc. Why don't you get some mdf parts cnc cut for a plug (about $100 maybe) cover the whole thing in body filler, fair it all over and make a fibreglass mould from that? Yes, it may only last for 100 guitars instead of 10000, but at that price it's easy and cheap to replace. You only need aluminium moulds if you're heat curing, and carbon does not need heat curing unless you're using pre-pregs, which would be way over the top for a guitar body.
I know you said you have no money, but if you had started with slightly smaller ambitions, you could have done the crowdfunding campaign for a much lower goal and had a lot more chance of reaching it. It sounds to me like you're less interested in making guitars as starting a big company. I really like what you are trying to do, and I think it's a shame that you seem to be focusing on the wrong things.

A 10000 dollar mold is a real quote for an aluminium CNC milled block, the raw block is 2000 euro, the milling operation is 2000, the 3d guy to make my model digital is 2000, the heat blankets and controllers are 2000, transport and so on.

You dont need that for 100 units, that is true. A hand layed up gelcoat mold is in the 1500 range (with silicone heatblanket). My epoxy has a post cure of 15 hours at 80 degrees celcius, but i found gelcoat that can handle 120 degrees celcius, that should be safe. A sort of in between thing is to have an aluminium plug for 5000, then you can just keep taking molds from it, when a composite mold is worn out. The mold is only the beginning of the costs. I do want to make a company not a guitar, so the rent has to be factored int, a complete woodworking tooling setup. all the strings, the hardcases, tuners, material costs.

If this fails, i can still relaunch with a lot cheaper guitars, but there still wont be any marketing budget. I had hope to avoid another 10 years of struggling, but if i have to i will sell my PC and the rest, try to build a simple mold and build 2 guitar. Sell them for a very small ammount of profit, just to be able to continue. But i have to be honest, i expected it to go well. I believe these gutiars will be better then a 3000 euro A brand, and i believe 1400 is fair. The first prototype sounded richer then most 3000/4000 euro A brands in the music store.

You might be right about the fact, that my vision of a strong company is just to far from where i am today. Too big of a leap. The downside of a boutique rout (as a real company) is that you produce so little amount of units that you have to charge 4000 to survive ( its not uncommon if a wooden gutiar luthier only makes 1 per month).

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

There's also the open question of whether super-duper, aviation- or wind-turbine- or yacht-grade CF does anything for the guitar's tone, compared to cheaper options. It's a leap of faith.

"Better" (more expensive, rare) materials don't automatically make a better guitar. You could make a guitar out of beautiful, rare African ironwood b/s and a curly cherry or quilted maple top and I bet it would likely sound awful.

Koen: the software startup industry has adopted the concept of "MVP" or minimum viable product, together with "lean startup" principles. The idea is to spend just enough time and money and build the smallest possible version of a product to prove product-market fit. The most successful MVPs are polished enough to look serious and professional to potential users (I.E. not so bare they would deter anybody from using them), but bare bones, with very few features and only one variant targeting one specific use case.

As a concrete example: the MVP of a mobile app typically only works on only one platform E.g. Android phones; it may look funny or not run at all on tablets, and there's no iPhone or iPad version; there may not be an option to buy stuff in the app and instead the app sends you to a website to buy things; etc.

I believe you would be more successful and more attractive to investors if you tried the MVP approach like:

* forget the multiple top finishes. Do one, with the most appeal. Drop the desert/distressed option. Do you know anyone who says "this guitar is great, but I won't buy it because it doesn't look like I dragged out through the Sahara desert with my truck."? Me neither.
* do one rosette. Not two or ten. One.
* do one bridge.
* forget the colored CF options. One of the world's most successful industrialists supposedly said "You can have any color you want as long as it's black." Do that.
* forget the $10k tooling--you haven't proved that more than one person is willing to buy this guitar. Why tool up to build 1,000 when you don't know if you'll ever sell one? You also haven't proved the fancy CF is a better option that justifies the upgrade. Go with the less fancy options first as suggested by many before like PeterF above. Make a few, sell them, and buy the fancy mold with those proceeds.

So far you've proved one thing: you can make a guitar-shaped object with a composite body and a wood top that sounds like a guitar. That's good, but the world already knows that--Ovation and others have done it before. And guess what, Ovation went out of business. It's going to take a serious effort to prove 1) you can do it better than Charlie Kaman and 2) players actually want to buy your guitars. Paradoxically, the way to prove that and earn backers' trust is by going small first and improve incrementally.

Of course I could be totally wrong. But the beauty of the MVP is that you'd find out quickly and cheaply. You said your campaign isn't doing great, and you're stuck in a maximalist pattern--you can't really remove stuff now, so the only way to go is adding more options or promises, which makes it even more difficult to deliver on.

Tl;Dr you're asking people to fund a bunch of things but haven't proved it's a good idea to anyone yet.

The sad thing is, the current goal of 24000 IS the lean startup...

You can not start a composite company for this ammount, this ammount is what i need to make professional quality guitars at home, without being a business. The rules in the Netherlands are so strict, if i register as a company, i can not build at home anymore (only office things in the zoning code). That means that i would have to rent a space, that autograph alone is 18000 euro for 1 year.

The sound is already there. everybody loves it, an investment will make the finish quality go up. About the colored fabric, it all goes into the same mold, it does not make a difference if i cut something from roll 1 or off roll 2, its cosmetic.

Ovation does not use carbon fiber, they use a sheet molded compound (plastic) and the high end models use fiberglass. Carbon fiber sounds better then fiberglass. The philosophy of cutting costs to make more profit is exactly the reason why they went out of business. You cut 10 little things and the total quality went down, people wont stand for that and keep paying top dollar.

Do you need Yacht quality bodies? It`s a time thing. If i sold a 100 units on this crowdfunding, everybody would have a guitar in a timely manner. If i had to make the bodys too they would have to wait 3 years, which is unacceptable. 1 composite company can supply 10 bodies per week, and i have 2 companies on standby)

It`s also an accuracy thing, if i recieve bodies to the exact same dimentions every time, i can make wooden component ahead of time. My system means that every component fits into every other component. Every fretboard fits in every body, every sound board fits in any body. This is the original design philosophy of Leo Fender (replaceble necks etc).

This method saves a huge ammount of time without sacrificing quality. You could cut 100 tops in 1 day at the bandsaw, route them to the final shape the next day, and they will fit in any body. You wont get this accuracy in a composite unibody with a wetlay, but 2 hard shells with an infusion strategy will get the part thickness the same all the time. The one time setup costs are much higer, but 1 guy without employees can finish 20 guitars per month without any employees instead of 1. then they dont have to be 4000 euro, but it can be affordable. If i have to i will sell 3000 euro quality guitars for a 1000 bux for a few years, if that is what it takes to be able to start a business in these times of financial difficulties for everybody.

I just have to get units out into the world, so people will see its the real deal. Then you are earning a reputation instead of projecting stuff on a crowdfunding campaign.

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by printer2

And I don't understand having a 20k marketing budget but (when I looked when you posted the funding page) only a little above 1k for building. But then again I never was much of a business type.

I don`t understand what you mean...

There is an invasion of fake grassroots in the crowdfunding space. They pretend to be the little guy that needs your help, but in reality they are properly funded by investors, and their "prototype" is in fact the a consumer ready thing from great molds. They have a marketing budget to buy traffic, 10000 or 20000 will get you the traffic you need. Crowdfunding is a numbers game. 1 out of every 1000 is the right customer for your product for example. I need to sell 15 units on this crowdfunding campaign to be able to continue with this plan. I have had 2000 visitors in 10 days and 1 sale, that means my number is 1 in 2000 wants a guitar. that means i still need to get 28000 people to the page....without marketing budget.

You can have the best product in the world, but if people don`t know you exist, nothing will happen. You can simply buy this traffic, you can buy fake news. If you see a crowdfunding page that is 1 minute old, and it has all these logos of news channels, "as seen on CNN". this is fake. this is paid content, you have to write and supply them with the "news" message yourself. You are basicly renting a URL behind their credible website with fake news. This is how they buy legitimacy. People dont realisie this is a funded operation, so they start to grow accustomed to extreme quality and asociate it with grassroots. If i rent a video company to make my movie 5000, marketing 10000, make a consumer ready prototype (everything flawless, sounds, finish, everything), buy traffic----> crowdfunding succes, you will probably raise 100k. They invest to make a fake buzz in the hopes that it will turn into a reall buzz. People do what other people do, its human nature.

Then there is the sliding scale of losing people....you have 1000 page visitors, 300 of them watch the movie, 5 of them finish the movie. I can see all the statistics, everybody stoped watching after 4 minutes of the 15 minute movie. So i made a snappy 3 minute movie, now they stop watching after 2 minutes. I put 1 year full time in this campaign, there is a huge ammount of supporting video content, songs. montages about the warmth, clarity sustain. I liturally spend u huge ammount of attention on every little detail. 2000 visitors went to my crowdfunding page ---->33 people watched the video with all the songs...

I am a simply guy, i just want to build. This world is not for me, analitics, crowdfunding, economics. I did not like it but i did the work and then some. In utopia everybody can just go to the resource center and talk with experts, then he will get acces to resources, but that is not the world we live in.

Crowdfunding is basicly reversed of an organic situation where you had resources. It would be better to perfect your model in alone and only then present it to the world, but i can not get to this qualitylevel without help. I understand why people wont commit such an ammount on a guitar that they cant play, buy a guy they dont know. If you have an investor, you will build units and send them into the world, then people can play them in the music store. That is much more apealing...and you can take it home, on this crowdfunding you have to wait between 6 and 12 months. I know i can deliver, but this trust factor makes crowdfunding tricky, i had hoped a grammy winner in the vid would help hahaha.

[PeterF]

Epoxy does not need post curing in anything but the most high-tech applications (think F1 cars, Americas cup boats etc) where every gram of weight saved and every tiny bit of extra stiffness is needed. A guitar back definitely does not fall into this category! Without post curing, I say again, you can make a very good plug/ mould that will last a long time for a couple hundred dollars at the most.
What epoxy are you using out of interest?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by PeterF

Epoxy does not need post curing in anything but the most high-tech applications (think F1 cars, Americas cup boats etc) where every gram of weight saved and every tiny bit of extra stiffness is needed. A guitar back definitely does not fall into this category! Without post curing, I say again, you can make a very good plug/ mould that will last a long time for a couple hundred dollars at the most.
What epoxy are you using out of interest?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

The prototypes have this, it must be post cured : http://shop1.r-g.de/item/110149

I dont care about costs, i am going for maximum quality. This epoxy is approved for aviation by the German authorities, you dont get this stability anywhere in the world in a guitar. I want to be high end for a medium price. I thought that concept was flawless. selling 3000 quality for 1400...

Where is the end if i go down that road? cheaper expoxy, fiberglass of 5 euro per square meter instead of 50 euro per square meter carbon. 5 dollar cedar tops instead of A1 tops. If i did that, i could offer them a lot cheaper, but it wont be as good. Maybe i should do both and make an entry version and a high end version... The entry could probably be in the 750 euro range, but i don`t think the whole SE thing worked out well for PRS. You can actually kill your high end model if the cheaper thing is "too good", people will say the high end is overpriced.

[PeterF]

I've not used that brand, but why not use west or system 3 that don't need post curing? You'd save a huge amount of money and both of those brands have extremely good reputations.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by PeterF

I've not used that brand, but why not use west or system 3 that don't need post curing? You'd save a huge amount of money and both of those brands have extremely good reputations.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

yeah that might be just as good, i dont have money to experiment, so i just sticked with what worked for me on the 3 prototypes. Mcpherson made over a 100 prototypes, if i had money, i would test all the epoxys, have the bodies tested on flexing, twisting, strength and so on.

R&d is very expensive. Even if heat curing is not required it might still improve the properties. Something like this on the bottom of the mold : https://shop1.r-g.de/4DCGI/ezshop?sK...&suchen=Search

[Ovation1]

There is something interesting about the tone of your guitars, I think you may have a good product here.
You say you need €10k mold (or outside contractor) to build the perfect carbon backs. Who is going to build the perfect tops?

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by littlesmith

The sad thing is, the current goal of 24000 IS the lean startup...

Not with a €10K euro mold when you can make something cheaper.

The sound is already there. everybody loves it, an investment will make the finish quality go up. About the colored fabric, it all goes into the same mold, it does not make a difference if i cut something from roll 1 or off roll 2, its cosmetic.

It isn't lean because you have two rolls (2x cost) when you could achieve the same results with one roll.

Do you need Yacht quality bodies? It`s a time thing. If i sold a 100 units on this crowdfunding, everybody would have a guitar in a timely manner. If i had to make the bodys too they would have to wait 3 years, which is unacceptable. 1 composite company can supply 10 bodies per week, and i have 2 companies on standby)[

It`s also an accuracy thing, if i recieve bodies to the exact same dimentions every time, i can make wooden component ahead of time. My system means that every component fits into every other component. Every fretboard fits in every body, every sound board fits in any body. This is the original design philosophy of Leo Fender (replaceble necks etc).

This method saves a huge ammount of time without sacrificing quality. You could cut 100 tops in 1 day at the bandsaw, route them to the final shape the next day, and they will fit in any body

I repeat: you have sold only one. Why do you care about volume or speed of production?

I just have to get units out into the world, so people will see its the real deal. Then you are earning a reputation instead of projecting stuff on a crowdfunding campaign.

Ok, say you make 100. Or 1000. Do you have a dealer network ready to devote shelf space to your guitars? Who's going to do the business development to get distribution? You? If so, when will you be building those 100 or 1000 tops? Taylor had Kurt and TJ beating down dealer doors to get Taylors into stores while Bob designed guitars and built his factory.

What happens to the unsold inventory? Every builder, no matter how good or big or small, has guitars that don't sell for whatever reason. That will be a drain on your resources.

Every builder has earned their reputation one guitar at a time in the beginning. One at a time.

Originally Posted by littlesmith

I am a simply guy, i just want to build. This world is not for me, analitics, crowdfunding, economics. I did not like it but i did the work and then some. In utopia everybody can just go to the resource center and talk with experts, then he will get acces to resources, but that is not the world we live in.

If you're a "simple guy" then it means you have less know-how than actual experts who've contributed here. You've received excellent business advice and you've ignored or argued with all of it.

You're clearly unhappy because you're not doing what you want to be doing, ie building guitars. We've given you lots of alternative solutions that would have you building and actually proving your product on a real marketplace (ie not family and friends) much faster and more cheaply. Instead you're pressing on with a very elaborate, time consuming campaign trying to set up a production line for 100+ guitars before you've even built a single sellable, market-quality guitar. That's not working, and yet you're justifying your failing approach by arguing with everybody. Why?

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by littlesmith

I dont care about costs, i am going for maximum quality. This epoxy is approved for aviation by the German authorities, you dont get this stability anywhere in the world in a guitar. I want to be high end for a medium price. I thought that concept was flawless. selling 3000 quality for 1400...

A guitar isn't an airplane. Quality metrics are different. You have not shown anybody aviation-grade materials are better than (or even as good as) cheaper alternatives.

As an example: Douglas fir is well rated for building construction. But it's not a very good option for guitars.

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

Not with a €10K euro mold when you can make something cheaper.



It isn't lean because you have two rolls (2x cost) when you could achieve the same results with one roll.



I repeat: you have sold only one. Why do you care about volume or speed of production?



Ok, say you make 100. Or 1000. Do you have a dealer network ready to devote shelf space to your guitars? Who's going to do the business development to get distribution? You? If so, when will you be building those 100 or 1000 tops? Taylor had Kurt and TJ beating down dealer doors to get Taylors into stores while Bob designed guitars and built his factory.

What happens to the unsold inventory? Every builder, no matter how good or big or small, has guitars that don't sell for whatever reason. That will be a drain on your resources.

Every builder has earned their reputation one guitar at a time in the beginning. One at a time.



If you're a "simple guy" then it means you have less know-how than actual experts who've contributed here. You've received excellent business advice and you've ignored or argued with all of it.

You're clearly unhappy because you're not doing what you want to be doing, ie building guitars. We've given you lots of alternative solutions that would have you building and actually proving your product on a real marketplace (ie not family and friends) much faster and more cheaply. Instead you're pressing on with a very elaborate, time consuming campaign trying to set up a production line for 100+ guitars before you've even built a single sellable, market-quality guitar. That's not working, and yet you're justifying your failing approach by arguing with everybody. Why?

"It isn't lean because you have two rolls (2x cost) when you could achieve the same results with one roll." 1x 1 m2 yellow carbon + 1x 1m2 green carbon costs the same as 1x 2m2 green carbon, it doesnt matter howmany colors you offer.

I dont have money, i do what i can, not what i want. I have planned for every outcome, 15 units at home, and alsoe medium sized and also 100 guitars in a rented space. It is irresponsible to not plan for every outcome. I have calculated everything to the cent.

The 24000 euro goal is not a 10k mold, the 24000 goal is a handbuild mold of a 1000 bux. 24k is nothing to start a business with composite. I listen to everything what everybody says here, that does not mean i must follow it. I know what i am talking about and i have studied all areas extensively. My social skills are not very good, so that could be why things come across a certain way.

The only solution here is money......money. If i had money i would have this up and running in a month, and it would produce guitars that compete internationally. Every time i could not build because i didnt have money i would do something else. Study materials, building processes, watching youtube movies for 8 hours, sourcing, marketing, all that boring stuff. I am 75% guitarbuilder and 25% entrepeneur, just building a guitar does not scratch my itch. I only had resources 1 time in my life, in the bitcoin bubble. I made a cryptocurrency that raised 65000 dollar in 14 hours, and there was another 65000 dollar demand but no product to sell. I lost it all to fair weather friends, i was too naive but i was invited to the swedish bitcoin conference as an expert speaker because my currency sent money from amsterdam to new york in 7 seconds. Visa can`t even do that. If i investogate something i`m like rainman, i analyse companies for fun in 1 night and make a google doc about it and forget about it forever, or an app that would really work. Many of my ideas come on the market years later because somebody else thought of it and wanted to put in the work.

As i said, i am very poor in social skills because i have a disorder, but please believe me that i know what im talking about with guitar stuff. I am ready to build 1 per month as a hobbyist, build 10, or build a 100, it doesnt matter, i just want to start. I put my eggs in this crowdfunding basket, so i have to ride it out until it ends. Then i can try something else, sell my stuff, get an investor, relaunch another crowdfunding with cheaper guitars. You cant compare a subtractive manufactering startup (wood) with an additive manufactering operation (composites), its much more expensive to start. The scissors are a 100 bux, the pump 500, leak detector 500, mold, disposables, and it goes on and on.

I will not quit, i will not give up, i sacrificed everythign for this for 10 years, i made mistakes and i learned from them. This is pure passion for me, and having no resources is very frustrating, so i do not believe that there is a simple solution that i can listen to and then i can build. I am so broke, i cant even put new strings on the prototypes, hundreds of euros of debt. I missed the rent payment for the first time ever this month, there was an after charge for power and i dont have savings, because i put it in this instrument stuff. This is not a game for me. I will get there one day.