middle string buzzing even with high action.

[CooloutAC]

so I have a 20 year old acoustic guitar I haven't played in a few years. Took it out of the case noticed action was pretty high at 9/64 and saddle was pretty notched up so I got a new saddle and took action down to 7/64 on low e and 5/64 on high e. neck relief is .008. but now I noticed there is terrible buzzing with the D and G string on the frets 3-12. I did the test at the nut by holding the 3rd fret and checking for space on the first and it seems like its just right and actually feels very tight on the first few frets when playing. I tightened the truss rod a touch in case that was loose. Sounds like the sound is coming from higher up the neck or the bridge area i have no idea. but only frets that seem slightly uneven are between the 12th and 13th fret I guess because the neck has sunk down from the body a bit. not much fret wear on the d or g strings. there is some at the first few frets for the b and e strings but they aren't buzzing.

I put the old saddle back on and it still buzzes even with the super high action. any idea what it could be or if I can do anything about it? I'm going to switch to higher gauge strings Im using 11's right now, this is a martin dx1. gonna switch to 12s which is what I use to use years ago but the buzzing is pretty bad I honestly don't think that is going to fix it.

Maybe I need a new nut? Could it be the saddle is too loose? it came out just with my fingers pretty easy and the new one fit in just as easy. I mean it doesn't rock or move from my touch in the slot. I'm just trying to think of what it could be. probably buzzing on the frets should I add more relief? I appreciate any advice. tks. i have no way to get it to a luthier.

[CooloutAC]

so I found there was a shim in the saddle. took that out and it didn't help the buzzing. I gave more relief on the neck. didn't help. I used a fret rocker but I don't see any uneven frets except that the bridge extension is slightly higher.

Should I just buy a new cheap guitar?

[redir]

Is it an actual fret rocker or a piece of wood or something? If you press the 3rd fret on the D and the 12th fret on the E and that is the only place you are getting buzz then it's likely you have a high fret in front of those.

[DickHutchings]

I wonder if it isn't something loose that's giving the buzz. If there's nothing wrong with the frets, strings or nut and you have good relief, that doesn't leave much else.

[CooloutAC]

Originally Posted by redir

Is it an actual fret rocker or a piece of wood or something? If you press the 3rd fret on the D and the 12th fret on the E and that is the only place you are getting buzz then it's likely you have a high fret in front of those.

i used the music nomad string gauge on 3 frets at a time. the bridge extension frets after the 12 are high. I get the buzz on every single fret from 3-12 with the two middle strings.

[CooloutAC]

Originally Posted by DickHutchings

I wonder if it isn't something loose that's giving the buzz. If there's nothing wrong with the frets, strings or nut and you have good relief, that doesn't leave much else.

it only buzzes when fretted. on the two middle strings from frets 3-12. Maybe the whole fretboard or neck is just a mess and I need a new cheap chinese import guitar. lol or maybe I should splurge on a chinsy sounding taylor academy to be on the safe side. I dunno. I might just put the guitar back in its case for another 4 years and give up the pastime. too expensive. its for rich people.

[redir]

Check, assuming the fretboard has a radius to it, the radius of the saddle and see if it matches your FB. You can do this by measuring all the sting heights at the 12th fret and report back too.

Also check the frets themselves. Are they seated into the fretbaord well or can you see some fret tang under them particularly in the middle?

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by CooloutAC

it only buzzes when fretted. on the two middle strings from frets 3-12. Maybe the whole fretboard or neck is just a mess and I need a new cheap chinese import guitar. lol or maybe I should splurge on a chinsy sounding taylor academy to be on the safe side. I dunno. I might just put the guitar back in its case for another 4 years and give up the pastime. too expensive. its for rich people.

Throwing shade on other well made and respected brands isn't going to make your Martin sound any better.

A couple of suggestions.

Throw a capo on the first fret and see if it gets any better.

Adjust the relief to .010" or .012" and go with that until you isolate the problem. Adding relief when it isn't needed may complicate finding the problem.

Some acoustics started using compound radius necks that far back, so do check that the saddle arch is appropriate for the projected radius if the neck is a compound radius.

Don't overlook the possibility of a loose brace. It's a very common problem on older instruments, and often shows up only on some of the strings, particularly at certain fret positions. Muting the strings and knuckle-rapping the top over the braces is a normal method of checking bracing, but it does require some experience to know what you're listening for.

Do check ALL hardware, particularly the tuning machines, for any vibration that may cause those symptoms. A loose tuner or bushing often sounds like it's coming from somewhere else.

Even though these types of rogue noises seem vexing, usually you can systematically isolate the possible sources to find the real problem.

[CooloutAC]

Originally Posted by redir

Check, assuming the fretboard has a radius to it, the radius of the saddle and see if it matches your FB. You can do this by measuring all the sting heights at the 12th fret and report back too.

Also check the frets themselves. Are they seated into the fretbaord well or can you see some fret tang under them particularly in the middle?

hmm looks like I'll have to buy another gauge for that. I know mine is 16" i believe. an old martin dx1 2004. and i'm not sure what do you mean by fret tang?

[CooloutAC]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Throwing shade on other well made and respected brands isn't going to make your Martin sound any better.

A couple of suggestions.

Throw a capo on the first fret and see if it gets any better.

Adjust the relief to .010" or .012" and go with that until you isolate the problem. Adding relief when it isn't needed may complicate finding the problem.

Some acoustics started using compound radius necks that far back, so do check that the saddle arch is appropriate for the projected radius if the neck is a compound radius.

Don't overlook the possibility of a loose brace. It's a very common problem on older instruments, and often shows up only on some of the strings, particularly at certain fret positions. Muting the strings and knuckle-rapping the top over the braces is a normal method of checking bracing, but it does require some experience to know what you're listening for.

Do check ALL hardware, particularly the tuning machines, for any vibration that may cause those symptoms. A loose tuner or bushing often sounds like it's coming from somewhere else.

Even though these types of rogue noises seem vexing, usually you can systematically isolate the possible sources to find the real problem.

you know I did hear a loud pop when I was playing last week. and it wasn't a string because nothing went out of tune, so I was wondering what it was. I guess I could try and stick a camera in there to look around. I thought it was the truss rod. It doesn't seem too straight when I put the wrench in.
Although i wonder if this was a problem I always had and it just got progressively worse over the years. probably why I found the saddle shimmed from the store. now that I think back I did have a similar buzz but only when i really struck those chords as hard as I could. I think I made it worse messing with the truss rod which was the first thing I did to try and lower action I tightened it a quarter turn but have since now loosened it again but the issue remains.

[Robin, Wales]

You are not alone! 3rd and 4th strings tend to be the first to buzz as the action and relief are lowered. Relief is an interesting issue. Because of the fretboard radius, it is slightly different under the 6th string (or 1st string) than when measured under the 3rd or 4th strings. So one person's 0.008 may be someone else's 0.006 depending on which string the measurement was taken - and there seems to be no consensus where exactly it should be taken!

A few of here on AGF shape our saddles with just a little tighter radius than the fretboard (say a 14" radius for a 16" board). This means that the typical string to string drop in action height from bass to treble slows a little in the middle of the fretboard. The 6th and first strings can have your usual action of say 2.5mm to 2mm but the 3rd and 4th strings sit just a fraction higher than they would if you used a 16" radius saddle. Also, measure and set your relief using the middle strings, as they are the problem children.

[redir]

Originally Posted by CooloutAC

hmm looks like I'll have to buy another gauge for that. I know mine is 16" i believe. an old martin dx1 2004. and i'm not sure what do you mean by fret tang?

The tang is the part that fits into the slot holding the fret in. You can see here on a guitar that is getting fretted that he has not quite hammered them in and you can see the tang:



Here are well seated frets:

[peetar]

If it is buzzing from fret 3-12 and 13 and up are a little high, then it's the high frets on the extension that are doing it.

[CooloutAC]

Originally Posted by peetar

If it is buzzing from fret 3-12 and 13 and up are a little high, then it's the high frets on the extension that are doing it.

I'll see how the higher gauge strings are, which is just brutal. and after I replace the nut which I cleaned to fix a sintar effect on high e string. But still got the D string buzz through out middle of neck. I probably need a whole fret job or neck reset. but I mean I actually put on silk and steel strings and the guitar is playable with high action, plays sharp but its not horrible. You notice the buzz most when doing bar chords in the middle of the neck, but in the cowboy chord area its perfectly fine and if playing lightly you can avoid buzz in middle. Honestly I have to learn how to play softer, i play so hard i make guitar techs in the store literally cringe. lol


But in the meantime I ordered a Fender PO-220E mahogany direct from fender as a couch guitar. lol. I figure instead of paying $200 or more to luthier for a fretjob and setup. will teach me how to play softer. And I still have the martin dx1 canon when i need to play loud occasionally outside or want to bang on something. But most of the time i'm in my living room and I'm tired of yelling over the dread lol.

[CooloutAC]

Originally Posted by redir

The tang is the part that fits into the slot holding the fret in. You can see here on a guitar that is getting fretted that he has not quite hammered them in and you can see the tang:



Here are well seated frets:

oh wow I was just asking this question on another thread and then I saw your post. oh I see. it came to me that maybe I should try hammering in the frets. When I checked for uneven frets i only did down the D and G strings 3 at a time. Should I be doing that for all strings? I got a small little rummer mallet would that work? Should I hammer them all lightly in?