Installed my HFN today

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Actually I just thought of something that I would do if this were me, I would completely remove the pickup, clean up the feet with sandpaper and place it on a surface that I know is 100% flat. If it wasn't I would sand the feet accordingly to make it flat. If it was flat I would mount it in the guitar and with a mirror or camera make sure that all three feet were making even contact and sand according to that. Maybe I was lucky or something but it does seem odd that at least 3 people are reporting the same or similar issue.

I mentioned this procedure in another thread on the Schatten HFN. What I use for bridge-saddle flatness checking, and any other issues pertaining to flatness, is a small surface plate as used in machine shops for inspection and measurement of parts. Small mirrors and small panes of glass are just as useful when checking for flatness of a part or component. Place the part or component squarely on the surface and then look under the part or component with either sunlight or a flashlight on the opposite side to illuminate the interface area of the flat reference surface and the part or component. You'll see light between these two surfaces wherever there is an unevenness in the part or component.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I mentioned this procedure in another thread on the Schatten HFN. What I use for bridge-saddle flatness checking, and any other issues pertaining to flatness, is a small surface plate as used in machine shops for inspection and measurement of parts. Small mirrors and small panes of glass are just as useful when checking for flatness of a part or component. Place the part or component squarely on the surface and then look under the part or component with either sunlight or a flashlight on the opposite side to illuminate the interface area of the flat reference surface and the part or component. You'll see light between these two surfaces wherever there is an unevenness in the part or component.

Yep good idea for sure. The more I think about this issue that some are having makes me wonder. I'm sure the pickups are sent out with the feet completely flat so it seems to me that it's more likely that the issues are the soundboards not being completely flat. The biggest difference between me and the rest right now is I installed mine in a carbon fiber guitar that has a flat soundboard.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Yep good idea for sure. The more I think about this issue that some are having makes me wonder. I'm sure the pickups are sent out with the feet completely flat so it seems to me that it's more likely that the issues are the soundboards not being completely flat. The biggest difference between me and the rest right now is I installed mine in a carbon fiber guitar that has a flat soundboard.

Yes! Likely, wooden guitars, especially, are prone to slight bridgeplate geometry flexing and arching when string tension is applied. I displayed my method of transducer installation using simple C-Clamps in another HFN thread (reproduced below). Clamping the HFN when installing with the supplied 3M VHB or Trance Audio tape will help ensure the three feet of the HFN stay in contact with the adhesive/bridgeplate interface.

My Pickup Clamping Method: If using tape, especially the Trance tape, I suggest my clamping method which would use two lightweight C-Clamps with nylon cauls, ordered from Stewart-MacDonald, to clamp the HFN with light pressure overnight to ensure that all three feet of the HFN make and remain in intimate contact with the adhesive/bridgeplate. I'm almost 100% sure that the Trance tape is strong enough to permanently hold all three HFN feet, especially those of the new, supposedly more flexible ABS HFN base, to the adhesive/bridgeplate interface if applied by using my method. Below are photos of one of my Trance Amulet transducer installations in a Martin HD-28. Please note that it should be possible for two Stew-Mac C-Clamps with nylon cauls to pretty much engage the entire top transducer rail of a Schatten HFN pickup. You would torque the C-Clamp screws to only about one to two lbs-ft of torque (or just use a touchy-feely finger guestimate) which would ensure the HFN's feet are making and maintaining overnight contact with the adhesive/bridgeplate interface but not torqued enough to cause damage to the guitar of piezo element in the HFN. Note the LED lights and mirror used to facilitate installation, and the piece of vertical foam to distribute the weight of clamp onto more of the guitar's top.

Stewart-MacDonald Soundhole C Clamps (I use the 5 inch deep clamps)

Nylon Cauls for Soundhole C Clamps

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Yep good idea for sure. The more I think about this issue that some are having makes me wonder. I'm sure the pickups are sent out with the feet completely flat so it seems to me that it's more likely that the issues are the soundboards not being completely flat. The biggest difference between me and the rest right now is I installed mine in a carbon fiber guitar that has a flat soundboard.

Looking at the inside-the-guitar photos of your Emerald guitar, the top appears to be a carbon fiber weave which would have some texture, rather than a completely smooth surface. If that's the case, it could certainly be why putty works better for you than tape.

The fact that the Emerald has no bridgeplate and you can install directly to the carbon fiber top may be contributing to the fact that you've had less difficulty with positioning for an even string volume.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Looking at the inside-the-guitar photos of your Emerald guitar, the top appears to be a carbon fiber weave which would have some texture, rather than a completely smooth surface. If that's the case, it could certainly be why putty works better for you than tape.

The fact that the Emerald has no bridgeplate and you can install directly to the carbon fiber top may be contributing to the fact that you've had less difficulty with positioning for an even string volume.

I think Emerald "prepares" the under-top area, either free-of-charge or for a small fee, for the subsequent transducer installation by a buyer. If I was buying an Emerald, without their factory pickup/preamp installation, I would ask to have this done to my guitar.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I think Emerald "prepares" the under-top area, either free-of-charge or for a small fee, for the subsequent transducer installation by a buyer. If I was buying an Emerald, without their factory pickup/preamp installation, I would ask to have this done to my guitar.

Good to know.

I seem to recall that CA guitars discouraged the use of SBTs in their guitars. Perhaps that's because the textured carbon fiber surface doesn't work well for taping in SBTs.

I can observe that the wooden bridgeplate in my old D28 was rough enough that I eventually had to superglue in an iBeam after the tape came loose twice. It was a lazy solution as I could have followed David Enke's suggestion of smearing some super glue gel onto the bridgeplate and sanding it down to a smooth surface.

[TNO]

I've played around with mine some more. Ended up with eq set flat (before I was using the preset eq curves built into my Boss Acoustic Singer which was hyping the high end sizzle). Running through my Red Eye gives more clarity. The middle two strings are definitely louder. If I can fix this I will be one happy camper.

I think the next thing to try might be to position it so that the high strings are just outside the saddle and the low E is right on it.

Another thing might be to use 2 layers of tape on the high strings foot which should have the effect of lowering the low E foot?

I will check that the pickup base is flat before doing anything else.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Looking at the inside-the-guitar photos of your Emerald guitar, the top appears to be a carbon fiber weave which would have some texture, rather than a completely smooth surface. If that's the case, it could certainly be why putty works better for you than tape.

The fact that the Emerald has no bridgeplate and you can install directly to the carbon fiber top may be contributing to the fact that you've had less difficulty with positioning for an even string volume.

The surface where the Schatten is placed was formerly occupied by the Anthem tru-mic. They used a touch of super glue on top of the adhesive on the tru-mic so when I removed it I gently sanded off all the residue left behind. There wasn't surface prep done on mine like they do for a k&k but it was originally flat on the location so I made sure that it was flat when I was done sanding.
I would definitely be a little more cautious about sanding a wooden bridge plate though.

[Petty1818]

I highly doubt this is the case but this HFN issue has made me start questioning my Amulet M install. I wonder if the reason for the Amulet M sounding thin/bright was due to my bridge plate not being entirely flat? I don't know how badly I want to go sanding down the bridge plate but it does make me wonder. My guitar is bright but not as bright as the amplified sound suggested when I had the Amulet M. It could explain why two SBT's have had similar tonal issues in my guitar.

[The Kid!]

My tech is putting the Schatten HFN passive in a 1952 J-45 that I just picked up. He's also putting in a bone nut and compensated bone saddle.

I'll be using the Schatten with a Tondexter and Sunnaudio Stage DI, but it will be nice in case I have a plug in and play situation and have to plug straight in.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by The Kid!

My tech is putting the Schatten HFN passive in a 1952 J-45 that I just picked up. He's also putting in a bone nut and compensated bone saddle.

I'll be using the Schatten with a Tondexter and Sunnaudio Stage DI, but it will be nice in case I have a plug in and play situation and have to plug straight in.

Out of curiosity, which method of install is he using, tape or putty?

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I highly doubt this is the case but this HFN issue has made me start questioning my Amulet M install. I wonder if the reason for the Amulet M sounding thin/bright was due to my bridge plate not being entirely flat? I don't know how badly I want to go sanding down the bridge plate but it does make me wonder. My guitar is bright but not as bright as the amplified sound suggested when I had the Amulet M. It could explain why two SBT's have had similar tonal issues in my guitar.

Just lightly sand the bridgeplate using a 9-volt battery as a sanding block to remove any lacquer glazing or glue bumps that may have been migrated to the bridgeplate during your guitar's construction. Being a two-transducer system, the Amulets aren't as susceptible to bridgeplate curvature as an all-in-one base system such as the Schatten HFN and LR Baggs iBeam. My Trance Amulet systems have all been very consistent in rendering good amplified tone--and that's without actually following Trance's selectable pressure method of "focusing" each Amulet for best tonal response. I've had consistently good results whether holding an Amulet in place with my fingers for 10 - 15 minutes or installing them with my C-Clamp overall-pressure method. Yes, you can change the string balance somewhat by moving one or both Amulets in or out along the saddle-line but generally following Trance's recommended initial locations will get you a good amplified tone. My next Trance installation, if I ever get around to it, will be in my 2016 Martin D-18, with my yet unused Trance Amulet M-VT Phantom System.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Just lightly sand the bridgeplate using a 9-volt battery as a sanding block to remove any lacquer glazing or glue bumps that may have been migrated to the bridgeplate during your guitar's construction. Being a two-transducer system, the Amulets aren't as susceptible to bridgeplate curvature as an all-in-one base system such as the Schatten HFN and LR Baggs iBeam. My Trance Amulet systems have all been very consistent in rendering good amplified tone--and that's without actually following Trance's selectable pressure method of "focusing" each Amulet for best tonal response. I've had consistently good results whether holding an Amulet in place with my fingers for 10 - 15 minutes or installing them with my C-Clamp overall-pressure method. Yes, you can change the string balance somewhat by moving one or both Amulets in or out along the saddle-line but generally following Trance's recommended initial locations will get you a good amplified tone. My next Trance installation, if I ever get around to it, will be in my 2016 Martin D-18, with my yet unused Trance Amulet M-VT Phantom System.

I should try that. With that said, the only pickup that every occupied that spot before the Amulet was the Lyric and that 3M tape hardly leaves any residue (actually none at all). I used to have the expression system but it was the first generation version and I believe nothing was on the bridge plate. Still, maybe it's worth a shot.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I should try that. With that said, the only pickup that every occupied that spot before the Amulet was the Lyric and that 3M tape hardly leaves any residue (actually none at all). I used to have the expression system but it was the first generation version and I believe nothing was on the bridge plate. Still, maybe it's worth a shot.

Okay, granted I'm very easy in spending other people's money, but maybe have your Taylor upgraded to the latest Expression System 2, which, IMHO, is the best pickup/preamp system available to date. Better yet, trade-in your older 314ce toward a new Taylor Dreadnought model with ES2 in the wood combination of your choice. I've found that regardless of pickup/preamp system, dreadnoughts sound smoother and warmer when amplified--yes, of course there may be a bit of boom in the bass that can be dialed-out if needed.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Okay, granted I'm very easy in spending other people's money, but maybe have your Taylor upgraded to the latest Expression System 2, which, IMHO, is the best pickup/preamp system available to date. Better yet, trade-in your older 314ce toward a new Taylor Dreadnought model with ES2 in the wood combination of your choice. I've found that regardless of pickup/preamp system, dreadnoughts sound smoother and warmer when amplified--yes, of course there may be a bit of boom in the bass that can be dialed-out if needed.

Oh I have definitely thought about that. My 310 is about 13 years old and because I play in a celtic band, I beat it pretty hard. It looks nice still but there are definitely small dings around the body. I would probably get $1000 for it and I paid almost $3000 back then. I also have a connection to it since it's been to numerous big gigs with me.

Unplugged the guitar is actually quite nice but for some reason it's a pain in the butt to amplify. The Trance and even the HFN seem to accentuate the high end but in an unnatural way. Yes the guitar is bright but that brightness is often over the top when plugged in.

It's funny, I started with a Matrix/Spectrum set up and went on a huge journey for a great pickup (Anthem, Lyric, Amulet M, HFN etc) and I am strongly considering going back to the Matrix/Spectrum (or tonedexter) set up. My guitar has two jacks so I might even leave the HFN in there for the times when I don't have the spectrum/tonedexter around. This is my main stage guitar so I might start treating it like that and down the road when I get an acoustic that I absolutely love, I will try the Amulet M in it.