Omni/Figure 8 MS experiments

Doug Young · #1 10-02-2012, 02:53 PM

I'm starting to think about a new recording project, and have started my favorite way to procrastinate - playing with mic placement. I've had a setup I've been pretty happy with, but I thought I'd try some arrangementa I hadn't tried in a long time, and maybe some here might be interested. This is a 1st pass, not optimal, comments or suggestions are all appreciated. Tracks are just a short improvised noodle, no EQ, no reverb, no processing of any kind, except that I tried to level match them, probably not perfectly. I think I've shied away from omni and figure 8 out of fear my room wasn't up to the task, but it was worth another try. These were simultaneously recorded, and should sync up. I hear the biggest difference when I can switch rapidly between them, when the shift in stereo image becomes apparent.

Brauner VM1s - spaced pair OMNI

Schoeps CMC6/Mk8 pair - figure 8 in MS

Both pairs of mics, evenly blended

Omnis + the "Mid" Schoeps only, to fill in the middle

Howard Emerson · #2 10-02-2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm starting to think about a new recording project, and have started my favorite way to procrastinate - playing with mic placement. I've had a setup I've been pretty happy with, but I thought I'd try some arrangementa I hadn't tried in a long time, and maybe some here might be interested. This is a 1st pass, not optimal, comments or suggestions are all appreciated. Tracks are just a short improvised noodle, no EQ, no reverb, no processing of any kind, except that I tried to level match them, probably not perfectly. I think I've shied away from omni and figure 8 out of fear my room wasn't up to the task, but it was worth another try. These were simultaneously recorded, and should sync up. I hear the biggest difference when I can switch rapidly between them, when the shift in stereo image becomes apparent.

Brauner VM1s - spaced pair OMNI

Schoeps CMC6/Mk8 pair - figure 8 in MS

Both pairs of mics, evenly blended

Omnis + the "Mid" Schoeps only, to fill in the middle

Hi Doug,
Not one of them will get in the way of good content.

Are you able to manipulate track pitch at all?

HE

Doug Young · #3 10-02-2012, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Hi Doug,
Not one of them will get in the way of good content.

Well, that's certain missing here :-) Just a noodle.

Quote:

Are you able to manipulate track pitch at all?

track pitch? What do you mean?

rick-slo · #4 10-02-2012, 03:08 PM

The Brauner VM1s - spaced pair OMNI is my favorite. It is very natural sounding. It missed just a touch of warmth that comes through with the cardioids. Maybe a warm type of reverb would take care of that. Maybe the last one, Omnis + the "Mid" Schoeps only, to fill in the middle, but with just a touch of the mid.

Howard Emerson · #5 10-02-2012, 03:09 PM

Doug,
Check your PM.

HE

Doug Young · #6 10-02-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The Brauner VM1s - spaced pair OMNI is my favorite. It is very natural sounding. It missed just a touch of warmth that comes through with the cardioids. Maybe a warm type of reverb would take care of that. Maybe the last one, Omnis + the "Mid" Schoeps only, to fill in the middle, but with just a touch of the mid.

yeah, the omni's have a complete lack of proximity effect, of course. I was trying to align these so I could mix them in phase, but it might be that the omnis will sound better in closer, and the ms pair maybe could be backed off a bit.

Doug Young · #7 10-03-2012, 01:21 PM

I created a mix of this using some suggestions from Howard. I'd be curious what people think. A little EQ, a little reverb, and a little "trick" :-)

Here's 2 variations, should be a pretty subtle difference:

Mix 1

Mix 2

Howard Emerson · #8 10-03-2012, 03:01 PM

Hi Doug,
Wow.......I like what you've done to the place:-)

Much more spacious, full-bodied, lush, without being cloying. The second one is a tad hotter than the first, but very appealing!

HE

rick-slo · #9 10-03-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I created a mix of this using some suggestions from Howard. I'd be curious what people think. A little EQ, a little reverb, and a little "trick" :-)

Here's 2 variations, should be a pretty subtle difference:

Mix 1

Mix 2

Compared to the prior clips these two clips sound louder and with some reverb. Is it a secret?

KevWind · #10 10-03-2012, 04:30 PM

very close but I liked Mix 1 best , Mix 2 sounded good and with the music and worked, but bit seem to me to have just a bit more verb

Doug Young · #11 10-03-2012, 04:50 PM

I didn't make any effort to level match these, tho I should have. I was trying to focus mostly on the stereo image created by the different mic setups. What Howard suggested, and what I did in these mixes is raise the pitch by 1 cent on one side, drop it by 1 cent on the other, then apply some reverb. The first mix is just the Brauner omni spaced pair done that way. Mix 2 brings in the mid mid mic (mono) in the center with no pitch modification. Interesting sound, I knew of this technique as a mono->stereo simulator, or as automatic double-tracking, but never considered doing it to a true stereo image. Sounds a bit funky in mono, but it seems to make the sound much "bigger" in stereo. I'll have to experiment more with this.

I don't think I changed the reverb between mixes, but adding in the mid mic changes things all around a bit, you've got the non-pitch shifted audio mixed with the pitch shifted, and the extra mic brings up the overall level a bit, which I didn't compensate for

Howard Emerson · #12 10-03-2012, 05:12 PM

Hi Doug,
When I was listening to playbacks in the studio this past winter, I asked my engineer, Fred Guarino, to do this subtle electronic doubling, and it took about 30 seconds to make it happen.

2Cents Plain, as my friend, Richard Bennett called it!

It used to require playing along with the track as closely as possible, possibly tuning a little bit sharp or flat to taste, and I used to do it on sessions a lot. One of the most famous doubled guitar parts is JR Cobb's rhythm part on The Classics IV, 'Spooky'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtr1u...eature=related

It's an easy way to add a little fatness, especially with Pro Tools HD, which is what we used on my new CD, It Ain't Necessarily So.

A little goes a long way.

HE
It Ain't Necessarily So: http://howardemerson.com/music2.html

rick-slo · #13 10-03-2012, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I didn't make any effort to level match these, tho I should have. I was trying to focus mostly on the stereo image created by the different mic setups. What Howard suggested, and what I did in these mixes is raise the pitch by 1 cent on one side, drop it by 1 cent on the other, then apply some reverb.

Why not just pitch shift one side 2 cents? Were you detecting some distortion?

Also it woud be informative to hear the pitch sifted material without the reverb added to better compare them to the earlier clips.

Doug Young · #14 10-03-2012, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Why not just pitch shift one side 2 cents? Were you detecting some distortion?

Because that's what Howard said to do. :-) Your approach is worth a try. Seems like a singe pitch shift of 1 cent might be worth it too.

Quote:

Also it woud be informative to hear the pitch sifted material without the reverb added to better compair to the earlier cips.

Good idea, hang on. Again, Howard said "add reverb", so I was following orders :-)

Doug Young · #15 10-03-2012, 06:36 PM

Ok, here's a mix with no reverb, just the +/- 1 cent pitch shift on each side:

No verb

And 2 cents on one side, no pitch shift on the other

2 cents

And 1 cent on one side only

1 cent

These lop-sided ones sound weird to me, I wonder if my pitch shifter is adding latency. Logic should compensate for that, but maybe it's not perfect, so there may be more going on here than pitch shift. With the +/- shift, at least it has a better chance of being equal. I may need to try some other pitch shifter.