Fishman Powertap Earth compared with Sunrise and K&K

[Rick Jones]

I made this video for another thread, but I figured it may help anyone trying to figure these things out in the future via the search function, so I've given it it's own spot here.

The Sunrise and K&K is a classic D.I.Y. dual source that's been around forever (often with the Trance Amulet or similar in the days before K&K popularity).

The Powertap Earth is Fishman's 'out of the box' answer for players looking for that kind of sound and capability with minimal installation hassles.

Excuse my fat-fingered (if enthusiastic) playing and amateur video skills, but I tried to cover as much as I could:

Both guitars are Avalons in the exact same tone woods, just slightly different body sizes (1" smaller lower bout and differently shaped upper bout on the A32).

[SpruceTop]

Thanks, Rick, very informative demos! Your amplified guitars sound excellent and your nice playing demonstrates the various pickup combos and tones well. It sure sounds like you've found great amplified tone!

[Rick Jones]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Thanks, Rick, very informative demos! Your amplified guitars sound excellent and your nice playing demonstrates the various pickup combos and tones well. It sure sounds like you've found great amplified tone!

Thank you. It's a never ending quest, and I doubt it's over! I do find the mag/sbt combo 'easiest' to use live... the response, clarity and 'size' makes it fun to play out, whereas UST and such used to make it a struggle.

[firelakekid2]

Hey Snorse, Great video. Enjoyed watching. Liked your playing. Very interesting.

[hann]

Wow I’m liking what I’m hearing

[takis.saro@gmx.]

Hallo Rick,

i had a simular rig in the 90s with a sunrise but with a inside De Byl Micsystem.
With 2 Custommade Preamps, it was a rich sounding system, but i was allways
tweaking.
The Fishman has the right Buffer/Preamp close to the Source, the K&K and the
Sunrise might be a little missmatched. And dont forget all those inside system-
preamps have mostly an EQ and Compressed signal inside, which might sound
pleasend in the begining. I found often it lacks headroom and if i want to change the sound it started to get comlicated.
Beside Phase, i realized that the problem was the different timing the pickups had. the sunrise was fast, but the mic needed a little more time to sound full, like the acoustic guitar does.
Today i use an inside mic with a custom preamp/eq in one guitar and on the other guitar just the mag pickup. I use a Headway SAM-1 which has a inside Preamp/EQ with real Headroom. i dont combine them anymore, so i get the best sound out of one system and not some mixed UBER guitar sound, which allways sounded, even with high headroom, to procced.

But in the end it is what make you and your guitar work.

Takis

[Methos1979]

Great demo, Rick. Thanks for taking the time. I find I liked the Sunrise/K&K a bit better but the ease of the Fishman would make it a great choice.

I wonder how both compared to the sound of the Cole Clark FL3, if you've done any comparison. I used to own Cole Clark guitars and they were the best sounding pickup system I've ever used.

[Petty1818]

I thought I would post here vs. the original thread! First off, thank you very much for taking the time to do this. I really do appreciate these videos. As you know, pickups can be a bit of a trap. You never know what they will sound like until you try them and then once you do, it's not always easy to return them or sell them used. I have a box in my basement with about ten different pickups in it. Videos like this do make the process that much more easy though!

It was a bit difficult at times to truly hear the characteristics of the pickup as your unplugged tone was coming through quite a bit, but I listened with headphones and to me, the Tap sensor felt like it was far more resonant than the K&K. It sounded like the whole guitar came alive. I am not sure if this would be a feedback issue live, but the Tap sensor felt like a well eq'd K&K, which is a great thing. I have never been a big sound hole pickup guy, but that Powertap Earth is one incredible sounding system!

I think I will give the PowerTap Infinity a try. I like the immediacy of a UST, but have aways wanted a SBT to add in for more of a natural tone. My hope is that I can still add the Tonedexter or Aura to my signal either in mono, or in stereo with just the UST being impacted. I know Fishman recommends that the Tap sensor be glued in, but it comes with adhesive and it seems like most people I have spoken to who installed this system, simply used the adhesive and avoided the glue. Thats something that's very appealing!

[Rick Jones]

Originally Posted by firelakekid2

Hey Snorse, Great video. Enjoyed watching. Liked your playing. Very interesting.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by hann

Wow I’m liking what I’m hearing

Thank you my friend.

Originally Posted by takis.saro@gmx.

Hallo Rick,

.....

But in the end it is what make you and your guitar work.

Takis

Thank you Takis. Yes, I love the SAM-1 too, I have one in my J185 and I run that alone in that guitar, which I use on the odd occasion when I play acoustic in a full band. I don't like it run alone, and it has a similar issue to the Baggs M line of pickups when used in a dual source: the looser, top-sensing, humbucking coil is wired out of phase to the other in order to cancel feedback. This means that you absolutely can't get it to be fully in-phase with a second source. It can sound good, sure, but it's not complete.

I hear you on the attack transient issue... but that's actually what I'm looking for. That nanoseconds of delay in response fattens the sound up for me, and although it's tough to show in a video, at large volume the way you vary your attack can make these differences more or less noticeable. I use that effect when playing solo as a way to sound bigger than just me.

Thanks so much for the info though, you are clearly very experienced with your live sound.

Originally Posted by Methos1979

Great demo, Rick. Thanks for taking the time. I find I liked the Sunrise/K&K a bit better but the ease of the Fishman would make it a great choice.

I wonder how both compared to the sound of the Cole Clark FL3, if you've done any comparison. I used to own Cole Clark guitars and they were the best sounding pickup system I've ever used.

No worries, and thanks for watching!

My son gigs the Cole Clarke now, with his teenage band that also has a cellist and a DJ!

It sounds great live, for sure, but it still has the piezo UST sound to some extent, and while it's superb for cutting through a band or doing more traditional acoustic strumming (it's a great plugged in strummer), for the percussive and somewhat polyphonic style I aspire to, it needs a mag or similar that doesn't get 'thinner' when you really pluck at it.

I might compare them soon on another video.

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I thought I would post here vs. the original thread! First off, thank you very much for taking the time to do this. I really do appreciate these videos. As you know, pickups can be a bit of a trap. You never know what they will sound like until you try them and then once you do, it's not always easy to return them or sell them used. I have a box in my basement with about ten different pickups in it. Videos like this do make the process that much more easy though!

It was a bit difficult at times to truly hear the characteristics of the pickup as your unplugged tone was coming through quite a bit, but I listened with headphones and to me, the Tap sensor felt like it was far more resonant than the K&K. It sounded like the whole guitar came alive. I am not sure if this would be a feedback issue live, but the Tap sensor felt like a well eq'd K&K, which is a great thing. I have never been a big sound hole pickup guy, but that Powertap Earth is one incredible sounding system!

I think I will give the PowerTap Infinity a try. I like the immediacy of a UST, but have aways wanted a SBT to add in for more of a natural tone. My hope is that I can still add the Tonedexter or Aura to my signal either in mono, or in stereo with just the UST being impacted. I know Fishman recommends that the Tap sensor be glued in, but it comes with adhesive and it seems like most people I have spoken to who installed this system, simply used the adhesive and avoided the glue. Thats something that's very appealing!

Hey no worries! I know what you mean RE the unplugged sound. I don't currently have a way to isolate the recording of the pickup via the PA or amp, sadly, so it is a bit of a trade-off, although you can hear somewhat the frequencies that 'fill in' around me when I turn up, I think, and the main thing we were all curious about in the other thread was how different the TAP sounded from the K&K.

I think it's very fair to say that the K&K is more feedback-prone than the TAP, despite how lively the latter is. Honestly I've been able to walk right up to a BOSE L1 with a sub and I have to 'try' to get feedback. That is unless you roll the sensor in on the mag channel too (this effectively gives you two instances of TAP signal, one along with the mag, the other discrete). Then it gets hairy, but you'd not really want to run it that way anyway as it doesn't sound good... gets kind of fizzy and treble-heavy that way.

I've glued my sensor in... I had it on the adhesive for the first couple of weeks as I tested it, and then I decided to glue it because I'm so 'thumpy'! Honestly, I perceive it to be more lively after gluing, but it may be psychological.

I think you're on to something with your Powertap Infinity idea. I honestly think that the Powertap Earth will be my go-to for a while now.

[Petty1818]

The one downside of this pickup is that it doesn't seem to be in stock at any of the Canadian dealers I usually purchase from. I have a two week trip to Europe coming up in a week as well, but once I return, I will order and try the PowerTap Infinity. Might be a bit of a wait, but I will definitely report back with my thoughts.

[Petty1818]

I just received my PowerTap Infinity and will be installing it this week. I have a show on the weekend so this is defintely a good test. I am glad I have the ability to blend in just the UST in case the Enhance is a feedback issue.

I will say this, Fishman easily has the best packaging I have ever seen. I know this is a bit lame, but the quality of their products is higher than most companies.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I just received my PowerTap Infinity and will be installing it this week. I have a show on the weekend so this is defintely a good test. I am glad I have the ability to blend in just the UST in case the Enhance is a feedback issue.

I will say this, Fishman easily has the best packaging I have ever seen. I know this is a bit lame, but the quality of their products is higher than most companies.

Awaiting your review!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Awaiting your review!

I will for sure report back! My only small complaint with Fishman is that they only provide one adhesive piece for all components, even the Enhance sensor. Make an error and it's frustrating.

[shufflebeat]

Rick, first of all thanks for posting this. As you suggest, an audio/video clip is worth a thousand words.

I found the camera mic masked a lot of the difference so it might not have been as obvious on cheap headphones (or none) as it is to you. If you ever want to repeat the process a mute-able vocal mic or mutlitrack recording so that mic can be muted later would be a help.

I'm a self confessed doubter when it comes to mag pickups so you may choose to disregard this next point:

Are you using bronze or phosphor bronze strings? You may (or may not) like to consider nickel bronze (d'Addario NB) or plain electric strings with both the S/R and the P/T, even just for experimental purposes. When I've needed to use a mag (Baggs m1a, since you ask) I found the NBs to be much less anaemic in the bass.

[/controversial interjection]

Loved your playing, by the way. I'll be experimenting myself with some of your tappiness.

[Brent Nelson]

What a great comparison and review. And I've always felt your playing was spectacular. Thanks much.