Can an under saddle pickup dull tone/volume??

mach5 · #1 06-06-2018, 04:03 PM

Just installed a new under saddle PU (LRB Element VTC) in my HD-28. It seemed to dull the tone ever so slightly. Is this normal? Thanks

Wade Hampton · #2 06-06-2018, 04:14 PM

Undersaddle pickups can definitely have an impact on the acoustic tone of a guitar, if that's what you're asking about. It's not universal - sometimes they have no audible effect at all on the acoustic tone. But, yes, on occasion they can have a discernible impact on the unplugged sound.

Sometimes you can get most or all of the acoustic sparkle back by experimenting with different saddle materials. If the stock saddle is Tusq, try replacing it with bone. If it's bone, try Tusq or micarta.

If that sounds uselessly vague, the fact is that it can be hard to predict what tonal effect different saddle materials can have when they're in combination with an undersaddle pickup. So experimentation is often the best option you have.

Hope that makes sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

tadol · #3 06-06-2018, 05:12 PM

Gotta be really careful with USTs - if they do not sit perfectly flat on the bottom of the slot, or if the saddle does not sit down flush and tight on top of it, it can potentially have serious consequences with the tone and efficiency of the UST -

jonfields45 · #4 06-06-2018, 05:57 PM

Try a new set of strings before you come to any conclusion. Just loosening and restoring string tension will make a noticeable difference.

Petty1818 · #5 06-06-2018, 07:29 PM

The Element is the only UST I have tried where I noticed a change in the tone of my acoustic. I believe Caleb (I think that's his name) who works for Lr Baggs, commented that they know there's a bit of a change but it's slight. There are variables though. Maybe the saddle is not perfectly matched to the old height. That can have a big impact on the tone.

Monsum · #6 06-07-2018, 11:09 AM

It's not an uncommon opinion that the element affects the tone of the guitar. It's a trade-off for a good UST sound.
I experienced that twice, when installing the Anthem pickup and recently with the Session VTC pickup.

After my guitar technician put the Anthem into my Martin I could not get over the terrible tone of my favourite guitar at that time.
Eventually I sold that Martin because acoustically it was unacceptable for me although it had a very good amplified sound.

Petty1818 · #7 06-07-2018, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monsum

It's not an uncommon opinion that the element affects the tone of the guitar. It's a trade-off for a good UST sound.
I experienced that twice, when installing the Anthem pickup and recently with the Session VTC pickup.

After my guitar technician put the Anthem into my Martin I could not get over the terrible tone of my favourite guitar at that time.
Eventually I sold that Martin because acoustically it was unacceptable for me although it had a very good amplified sound.

You sold a guitar because you installed a pickup, which hurt the unplugged tone? Why not just remove it and go back to the older saddle?

Monsum · #8 06-07-2018, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petty1818

You sold a guitar because you installed a pickup, which hurt the unplugged tone? Why not just remove it and go back to the older saddle?

Sounds extreme, doesn't it

That guitar had already a Fishman side-mounted preamp installed, so to replace it with the Anthem Stagepro (which is also a barn door system), the luthier had to make some adjustments for the preamp to sit properly which included making the hole bigger. Therefore there was no coming back to Fishman system. Besides, it wouldn't be easy to sell a second hand expensive Anthem Stagepro, so the best solution was to sell everything to someone who liked both acoustic and amplified tone of the guitar.

stevecuss · #9 06-07-2018, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mach5

Just installed a new under saddle PU (LRB Element VTC) in my HD-28. It seemed to dull the tone ever so slightly. Is this normal? Thanks

Out of all the UST options, the Baggs Element is most infamous for robbing acoustic tone, I think due to the braided/soft nature of the Element.

What is less clear is if the tone comes back after settling. It may or may not, but I could never discern and eventually replace the UST with an SBT pickup for my guitar.

VinceM · #10 06-07-2018, 04:44 PM

Yeah, my PUTW I/O undersaddle has that braided texture to it and I definitely noticed tone loss. But I got over it because it sounds so good amplified! Oh well those darned tradeoffs.

mach5 · #11 06-07-2018, 08:02 PM

Now ya tell me

, thanks for the replies though.
Maybe I'll try a bone saddle. Where's the best place to order one?

jonfields45 · #12 06-07-2018, 08:23 PM

Over the years I've installed maybe half a dozen Element USTs (along with maybe twice that number of K&K's and JJB's and few other types) and never noticed a change in tone or volume with the Element. Gibson and McPherson think their product can compete with an Element on-board and they've got the resources to do an objective test. Just because the Element uses a braided shield, instead of the Matrix's foil shield (which is fragile), does not mean the likely similar internal piezo polymer is any less stiff under compression (or less stiff than the rest of the bridge once loaded under compression). But by all means take the pickup out if it bothers you.

ACOUSTICDEWD · #13 06-07-2018, 10:30 PM

The LR Baggs Element is complete garbage and currently being stripped from my Breedlove Firelight. Why they put this in an such an acoustically perfect gtr is beyond my comprehension. I'm looking into the Dazzo's now which are said to be the least quack (for the money) and on par with Trance Audio, etc.

Jack Orion · #14 06-08-2018, 01:22 AM

i have undersaddles in two guitars - both as part of the Anthem SL system.

In my Martin OM28v I don't think I heard any difference - I'd owned the guitar for 7 years when the pickup was installed was I was quite familiar with the tone.

In my Collings OM2h ss I think the guitar *maybe* lost a little low end, but I'm not 100%...

The plugged in tone with the Martin is fantastic and I wouldn't mind a small loss in tone in order to widen that guitars use - in the Collings it still sounds really good but it's almost a bit too 'clear', I don't know if the combination of the Collings tone and the Anthem tone is a bit much (I do think the Anthem has a bit of an upper mids ringy-ness going on, which has added clarity to my Martin plugged in but might be a bit much with the Collings).

I've just put a K&K in a Collings OM2h T and I think that sounds pretty good and it hasn't changed anything acoustically so I might swap the Anthem out in my other Collings - I think the Anthem in the Martin sounds better than the K&K so that'll be staying for sure!

jonfields45 · #15 06-08-2018, 06:30 AM

A statistically significant double blind test of what a PUP does to the acoustic tone of a guitar is clearly impossible for any of us to do. It is possible at a manufacturer. You've got to bet they are not crippling their product with the popular Baggs UST to lose sales to Taylor. The placebo effect is incredible strong (take a look at drug trial data, sugar pills are pretty effective for a lot of people for a long list of conditions). So if it looks bad, we hear bad.

But life is short and you should do what makes you happy (including consuming sugar pills :~).

I've got one performing guitar with an Element and one with a K&K. I generally carry the Element guitar to gigs since I play in noisy restaurants and it is just less hassle to get a good sound under those conditions. I do go back and forth between those two guitars acoustically at home and felt neither pickup, installed at different times, changed either guitar. But maybe my placebo effect as a retired EE is to not hear stuff that my career in physical stuff and statistical control says should not be different.

I would change the strings and wait a while before I pulled out that PUP.