I really hear the difference in mixer preamps

[buzzardwhiskey]

I guess that I'd probably known that I'd hear a difference, but I'd thought that it wouldn't bother me. Nope. As I get better and better equipment around me, I'm less and less tolerant.

As some of you know, I'm currently using a split signal from my K&K equipped Martin CEO7 to feed two preamps and then combine them in a mixer at my feet before sending one signal to the main board. I have been using a Soundcraft EFX8.

I decided to try a small Yamaha MG10UX mixer for portability's sake. And since getting it I've been auditioning it and trying to recreate the sound I've perfected in the Soundcraft. But no joy.

The small Yamaha has a plastic sound with less air and detail and just plain musicality. And I wanted to like the one knob compressor but try as I might I just couldn't.

I fear I'm destined for the Grace Designs Felix, but I think I'm going to try the Allen & Heath Zed-10.

[troggg]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

I guess that I'd probably known that I'd hear a difference, but I'd thought that it wouldn't bother me. Nope. As I get better and better equipment around me, I'm less and less tolerant.

As some of you know, I'm currently using a split signal from my K&K equipped Martin CEO7 to feed two preamps and then combine them in a mixer at my feet before sending one signal to the main board. I have been using a Soundcraft EFX8.

I decided to try a small Yamaha MG10UX mixer for portability's sake. And since getting it I've been auditioning it and trying to recreate the sound I've perfected in the Soundcraft. But no joy.

The small Yamaha has a plastic sound with less air and detail and just plain musicality. And I wanted to like the one knob compressor but try as I might I just couldn't.

I fear I'm destined for the Grace Designs Felix, but I think I'm going to try the Allen & Heath Zed-10.

Well the deal in general with preamps is that once you reach a certain level of quality, then it gets really hard to tell the difference between hundreds of them ... and just cause you're sure you hear one as "best" doesn't mean that other people are automatically gonna agree with you.

I'm pretty sure you're gonna hear the Felix as superior to both Yamaha and A&H ... but there are quite a few choices in between cost-wise (Bose T1 for instance) you may want to audition before plunking down the big bucks.

I do like your strategy of at least trying the A&H as lots of people seem to think they're good preamps. However, the little Yammys have fans too ...

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

I guess that I'd probably known that I'd hear a difference, but I'd thought that it wouldn't bother me. Nope. As I get better and better equipment around me, I'm less and less tolerant.

I, for one, consider myself quite fortunate to not be able to hear the difference. I am extremely happy with my K&K + RedEye as are, apparently, my audiences.

Best of luck finding your sound.

Steve

[lkingston]

What I find with both mics and guitar pickups is that the lower the output, the more important high quality preamps, cables and connectors become. Plug in a battery preamped guitar or a relatively high output mic (Shure Beta58 for example) and the preamps don’t make a difference that most people can hear. Plug in a passive K&K preamp though or a low output mic like a Shure SM7B though and there is an absolute world of difference! The same thing with premium cables and connectors.

The preamps don’t have to be in the mixer. With a passive guitar, a short high quality cable going into a Redeye preamp will give you a strong signal that will still sound great through an inexpensive mixer.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

I, for one, consider myself quite fortunate to not be able to hear the difference. I am extremely happy with my K&K + RedEye as are, apparently, my audiences.

Best of luck finding your sound.

Steve

I'm considering swapping out the Boss AD2 preamp and using a Red Eye Twin in its sted to combine the raw K&K and the Tonedexter.

[varmonter]

Are you replacing the small mixer with the Felix ?
or running the felix into the mixer then the main board?
I think the Difference you hear is the preamps in the
mixing boards you are using correct?
So yea the felix is great but you'll still like the
sound of the felix through the Soundcraft than you will
through the Yammy . I have the same issue.
I much prefer the preamps in my mackie than
i do in the QSC touchmix . Touchmix is just too
sterile and lifeless to my ears.
It is of course all subjective and most audiences
can't tell the difference..
So if you are using one kk equipped guitar and
splitting that signal into two preamps then recombining
them into a small mixer I am assuming you like
the combo of the two pres eqs? The felix might give you
the same result. You can then eliminate the 2 preamps and the small
mixer out of your gain stage. Always a good thing.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Are you replacing the small mixer with the Felix ?
or running the felix into the mixer then the main board?
I think the Difference you hear is the preamps in the
mixing boards you are using correct?
So yea the felix is great but you'll still like the
sound of the felix through the Soundcraft than you will
through the Yammy . I have the same issue.
I much prefer the preamps in my mackie than
i do in the QSC touchmix . Touchmix is just too
sterile and lifeless to my ears.
It is of course all subjective and most audiences
can't tell the difference..
So if you are using one kk equipped guitar and
splitting that signal into two preamps then recombining
them into a small mixer I am assuming you like
the combo of the two pres eqs? The felix might give you
the same result. You can then eliminate the 2 preamps and the small
mixer out of your gain stage. Always a good thing.

Below is a picture of what I'm using. The picture shows a Yamaha mixer but I've returned it and will still be using my Soundcraft EFX8. I'm thinking about swapping in a Felix instead of the Soundcraft.

The other possibility I'm thinking about is swapping a dual channel Red Eye for the Boss AD2 and feeding the Red Eye a raw K & K signal combined with the Tonedexter.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

I guess that I'd probably known that I'd hear a difference, but I'd thought that it wouldn't bother me. Nope. As I get better and better equipment around me, I'm less and less tolerant.

As some of you know, I'm currently using a split signal from my K&K equipped Martin CEO7 to feed two preamps and then combine them in a mixer at my feet before sending one signal to the main board. I have been using a Soundcraft EFX8.

I decided to try a small Yamaha MG10UX mixer for portability's sake. And since getting it I've been auditioning it and trying to recreate the sound I've perfected in the Soundcraft. But no joy.

The small Yamaha has a plastic sound with less air and detail and just plain musicality. And I wanted to like the one knob compressor but try as I might I just couldn't.

I fear I'm destined for the Grace Designs Felix, but I think I'm going to try the Allen & Heath Zed-10.

I like the preamps on Allen and Heath mixers, and I own the CP12 and the ZED 10FX (which I would get over the non FX modes because for a little mixer the FX sound good). I prefer the A&H over all similarly priced compact mixers. I bought all the mixers in that price range with models from Mackie, Soundcraft, Yamaha, etc, and I returned them all except the A&H. I think the direct High Z inputs on the ZED sound great (and pushing in the extra gain switch on the rear panel for those channels really helps low output pickups). The build quality on the ZED mixers is pretty solid!!! Twice my ZED10FX has taken a fall from over 4 feet and and is still working!!!

I also play through a ZED60 14FX at one of my house gigs. It's currently feeding two BOSE F series systems. I just show up with my Parkwood LEO61 or a J45 which are both equipped with B-Band XOM systems and a Shure Beta 87A mic. I just plug in straight into the ZED and go!!! And the guitar and vocal tones are GREAT!

I also own the Grace Alix and the Felix. I like the Grace units for their superior EQ and their excellent routing capabilities, but the ZED pres get the job done.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

I guess that I'd probably known that I'd hear a difference, but I'd thought that it wouldn't bother me. Nope. As I get better and better equipment around me, I'm less and less tolerant.

Hi bw

My condolences, but you will at least own some of the best gear this world offers.

Hope the audience appreciates it as much as you do.

Disclaimer…I fully acknowledge the systems in my guitars and the PA I use are set to my thresholds of what makes me happy as well.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

Below is a picture of what I'm using. The picture shows a Yamaha mixer but I've returned it and will still be using my Soundcraft EFX8. I'm thinking about swapping in a Felix instead of the Soundcraft.

The other possibility I'm thinking about is swapping a dual channel Red Eye for the Boss AD2 and feeding the Red Eye a raw K & K signal combined with the Tonedexter.

Ok my question on your current setup is what
is gained (to your ear) by splitting one signal then
blending?? the td and the aD2. back together again?
my only thought here is that alone neither is good
enough to your ear but blended together they please you?
or is one signal panned to your stage monitor and the
other panned to FOH??

[troggg]

I don't know everything but I'm suspecting Buzzard may be too down on the Yammy mixer. I've been following the same basic market for a good six months and I can't recall anyone else saying that the Yammy preamps sound "plasticy."

I'm not here to tell you the Yammy pres are definitely best in class; conversely, Yammy has been making preamps for a long time and they shouldn't ever degrade anyone's entire sound.

Not as good as Redeye or Felix ... I can buy that ... really awful and not anywhere near the quality of immediate competitors like Soundcraft and A&H ... I dunno about that.

There could be something else going on.

[Doug Young]

With a split signal path like that, odds are fairly high that the two signals are arriving out of phase with each other (or even significantly delayed between the two), which is going to introduce some weird tonal effects. Phase differences will emphasize some frequencies, reduce (cancel) others. That plasticy sound you hear may be due to this. ToneDexter has a blend control, if that's what you're trying to do. Alternately, if you like something about the AD2, you might try putting it in the tonedexter effect loop instead.

[larren]

Originally Posted by troggg

I don't know everything but I'm suspecting Buzzard may be too down on the Yammy mixer. I've been following the same basic market for a good six months and I can't recall anyone else saying that the Yammy preamps sound "plasticy."

I'm not here to tell you the Yammy pres are definitely best in class; conversely, Yammy has been making preamps for a long time and they shouldn't ever degrade anyone's entire sound.

Not as good as Redeye or Felix ... I can buy that ... really awful and not anywhere near the quality of immediate competitors like Soundcraft and A&H ... I dunno about that.

There could be something else going on.

I agree there must be something else going on.

I have two smaller Yamaha mixers, an MG12XU, an and older MG82CX. I run straight into the desk from my guitars with UST and on-board preamp, and have no complaints about either.
I have been performing and using PA systems for over 30 years and having owned a variety of mixers, including Soundcraft, Allen and Heath, and Mackie, I personally think the new Yamaha desks have very good preamps.

[troggg]

Originally Posted by larren

I agree there must be something else going on.

I have two smaller Yamaha mixers, an MG12XU, an and older MG82CX. I run straight into the desk from my guitars with UST and on-board preamp, and have no complaints about either.
I have been performing and using PA systems for over 30 years and having owned a variety of mixers, including Soundcraft, Allen and Heath, and Mackie, I personally think the new Yamaha desks have very good preamps.

Basically Yamaha has even more resources than Loud (Mackie), A&H or Soundcraft, making it hard to believe they would allow themselves to be completely outgunned in the same niche market.

They've kind of abandoned the recording hardware market (anyone else remember or know the 02R and descendants?), but they're still going strong in the live world and recording software (Cubase).

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Ok my question on your current setup is what
is gained (to your ear) by splitting one signal then
blending?? the td and the aD2. back together again?
my only thought here is that alone neither is good
enough to your ear but blended together they please you?
or is one signal panned to your stage monitor and the
other panned to FOH??

The Tonedexter is wonderful, and I've written about my journey to find a solution in other threads, but essentially it has to do with volume and my lack of control in many of the venues I play.

As volume goes up, the upper frequencies become harsh and shrill. Or put another way, the center becomes weak. This doesn't occur at lower volumes and I love the Tonedexter alone when I play solo in restaurants and such. The problem is that even if the board has the ability to pull down the highs, historically I haven't had great success at getting it right or even close when I don't have control. Maybe that's my inability to communicate, or my pickiness or whatever.

So what I've found is that adding in the signal from this little Boss AD2 preamp to the Tonedexter signal (about 1:2) produces that beautifully realistic Tonedexter sound but with a "beefier center". When the volume goes up, the highs are not shrill because they're not "disconnected". In fact, the volume probably doesn't go up quite as high because the center is more present and the sound guy feels there's no need.

To Doug’s observation… I too was initially concerned about phase issues. All I can say is that I have yet to experience this. However, in this split signal configuration when I flip the phase switch on the Tonedexter it sure does alter the summed sound (reducing it by about almost half). The plastic tone is present only the Yamaha, not in the same config using the Soundcraft. Perhaps the Yamaha somehow emphasizes this phase issue? I don’t know.

There is the fairly new feature on the Tonedexter awakened by firmware updates allowing a portion of the original signal to be mixed internally. I experimented extensively with this but the tone is not to my liking. I don't have any theories about why this might be.

To Larry’s observation, I have no doubt that the audience is all about the performance. To that end I spend hours and hours practicing, writing, and honing my craft. I know I’ll never be a pro, but my performance is what I think about first every time.

Peace,
David