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  #1  
Old 07-16-2018, 03:40 PM
beninma beninma is offline
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Default Double stops up the neck questions..

I'm working on some Blues techniques with double stops up the neck.... (stuff in C minor pentatonic with the root at 8 on the 6th string, e.x. San-Ho-Say but Freddy King)

Before you say, "go play your electric guitar", obviously I'm doing that.

What I am looking for is any tips for acoustic with the heavier strings. I'm mostly doing a mini-barre across 2 strings as I play these. That works well on the electric guitar but I'm having a fair amount of trouble getting clean notes on my acoustic guitar.

The other thing is I end up pushing the barre down harder. This is mostly happening on strings 2 & 3. If i push down too hard it becomes difficult to not fret string 1, and I'm kind of at a loss on how to mute String 1 when I'm doing this.

If I play more softly I can avoid hitting string 1, but these double stops seem to kind of neat a bit of force as they already sound kind of quiet up the neck compared to closer to the headstock.

Any tips? Try playing them without the mini-barre? That is something I can try but it seems slower and can make it harder to move onto the next thing as quickly.
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Old 07-16-2018, 05:35 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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Obviously, I can't watch you play or know what your fingers need to do before or after the double stop. However on acoustic, and usually on electric too, I tend to play double stops with two fingers. If you're playing on the G and B strings and want to mute the high E, you can angle a the B string fretting finger's flesh across string 1 to mute the E, or just not hit that string with your pick.

On your secondary issue of volume up the neck, it's easier to hammer on when picking to add a bit of attack volume, or use left-hand finger vibrato for sustain if you are using two fingers for the double stop.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:02 PM
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Type out a short tab example of what notes need to be fretted and when and tell us about what tempo you are trying for.


For good volume you need to pick each note. Good guitar action setup is critical.
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:20 PM
Pitar Pitar is offline
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On adjacent strings 2 & 3 I use two fingers because the double stop is usually immediately followed by sounding the e string, like in a walk down, and it needs to be kept open.

A little demo to show what I mean -

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Old 07-17-2018, 08:49 AM
beninma beninma is offline
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Here's an example I've been working on. The double stops on 8 I'm generally hitting the G & B string with my 1st finger laid across the 2 strings. For double stops on 10 I'm laying my 3rd finger across the 2 strings. For the 11/12 double stop (which sometimes I slide into) I am using my 1st and 2nd finger.

The 3rd finger laid across the 2 strings is the hardest to keep clean. At least when moving up the neck I can do the double stop at fret 10 with my first finger, but it feels more natural to do it with the 3rd finger on the way down. If I try to play the whole thing with 2 fingers it seems like it can get a little hard to cram them both in there for a clean note on the 10th fret as I can't get both fingers down right next to the fret.

Just an example there are a couple of others that seem harder to modify to use two fingers. This one is moveable, this example is playing over a C chord, say I was going to play it on an F chord it'd move up to the first fret. On my acoustic guitar the effort to fret the double stops is way lower on the first fret but the stretch is harder. When I play this stuff on my Telecaster the fretting effort is pretty effortless anywhere on the neck but the stretch is quite a bit harder up at the first fret due to the longer scale. (I have a Taylor GC with the shorter scale.)

I may be I still need to investigate some more setup advice. There is a complex relationship here for me where I have to fret the notes harder to hit the strings harder without buzzing to get good tone when I'm this far up the neck. The hammered notes (grace notes) are particularly challenging up the neck compared to closer to the headstock. That's in contrast to electric guitar where there is seemingly no drop off in volume as I go up the neck so I can hit the strings more gently, and then not need to fret as hard to avoid buzzing.

Tempo is nothing outrageous here.. 80-100bpm for quarter notes but these are 8th notes.


Code:
e----------------------------------------
B---8----10--11--10--8----10--8----------
G---8h9--10--12--10--8h9--10--8h9--------
D----------------------------------------
A----------------------------------------
E----------------------------------------

Last edited by beninma; 07-17-2018 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:55 AM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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I play a passage like the the exact same way on electric and acoustic, I don't change technique. I would probably play that with a first finger barre for all the notes that are 8-8, 10-10, probably a third finger barre for the third set of 10-10 that leaded to the 8 - 8, then get the h9 with my second finger. In other words, mentally I am playing out of 8th position for the first 8-8h9, then I shift to 10th position for the barre 10-10 and the 11-12, the next 10-10, then I am back to 8th position for the final 8-8h9 10-10 8-8h9. Use my second finger for all of the hammer-on's, the middle 11-12 would be first and second finger, I would slide the 10 to the 11 and hammer on the 12, maybe.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:29 PM
mustachio mustachio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beninma View Post
I'm working on some Blues techniques with double stops up the neck.... (stuff in C minor pentatonic with the root at 8 on the 6th string, e.x. San-Ho-Say but Freddy King)

Before you say, "go play your electric guitar", obviously I'm doing that.

What I am looking for is any tips for acoustic with the heavier strings. I'm mostly doing a mini-barre across 2 strings as I play these. That works well on the electric guitar but I'm having a fair amount of trouble getting clean notes on my acoustic guitar.

The other thing is I end up pushing the barre down harder. This is mostly happening on strings 2 & 3. If i push down too hard it becomes difficult to not fret string 1, and I'm kind of at a loss on how to mute String 1 when I'm doing this.

If I play more softly I can avoid hitting string 1, but these double stops seem to kind of neat a bit of force as they already sound kind of quiet up the neck compared to closer to the headstock.

Any tips? Try playing them without the mini-barre? That is something I can try but it seems slower and can make it harder to move onto the next thing as quickly.
I try to avoid barre chords as much as possible on an acoustic. It’s wasted energy and ergonomic or maximizing economy of notes. For instance, my partner plays a D maj chord barring A-C#-F# with his index finger and adds his middle finger on the D note in front of of the C#. This terrible technique for a couple of reasons. The D maj doesn’t ring out like it would if all and only three finger tips are applying direct pressure downward. This allows for nuance and subtle adjustments in pressure. Second, forget about D sustained 4 and 2 without domaj ing some major acrobatics, not to mention transitioning to G and C major chords with ease due to having your ring finger on the D note on the B string. Thirdly, you’re hand will fatigue. I mean, how many times do you play a D
Major in the course of a gig. Now, couple those three issues with the fact you’re playing an acoustic guitar with higher tension strings.

Same logic applies to double stops on acoustic guitar. You have to change your technique that works for the song in which note your are transitioning from and to when playing a double stop. There’s not one way to do it all the time. That’s part of practicing. Youre not only learning the song structure but how to get to the next phrase cleanly, with embellishment or not, using the least amount of energy and stress on your hands as possible. We only have a finite amount of D chords we can bar until our hands get old.

I can always tell if someone is a pro or “learned” guitar player by how many barre chords he plays on an acoustic guitar during a gig. I’ll think to myself, “there’s a much better way to play that...”

That being said some chords need to be barred. Everyone knows the easiest chord to barre is the E maj/min and A maj/min shapes but I barre Cmaj and Gmaj shapes all the time. But not if I don’t have to.

I don’t know. Am I making sense?
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:48 PM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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I play a vast number of four string chords on the upper four strings, often rootless, and use a barre for virtually all of them. The barre D chord you describe is very similar to a 6/9 shape I use, a C shape I use, transitions really well to A7 (barre on second fret, high G) and so on. I find it super easy to do that old D, Dsus4, D, Dsus2 routine with that barred shape. If you have decent left hand technique and a reasonable setup, it's an extremely easy chord to play. And it leaves some fingers free for melody notes. Here is the "but"... I play finger style and lightly picked jazz, I play all over the neck - except open position. I really rarely play any open "cowboy" chords at all, I don't even own a capo. My main acoustic guitars are built by me, for me, set up by me, for me, and I suspect they play as lightly as any electric. So hand fatigue is less of an issue. I will say this about barre chords - the form I play the least is the old F full barre and the A form full barre. I just rarely play three tone major chords, and almost never feel the need for all 6 (or 5) strings. I do play four note major 7 chords with the root on 5 or 6, and the other notes on 4,3,2, though.

Brian
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Last edited by MC5C; 07-17-2018 at 12:56 PM.
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  #9  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:16 PM
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Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
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I'm a mini chord guy. I'm not a fan of mini bar chords even. Unless I want a muted sound. I do mute the strings not being played with my fretting hand. I pick the strings I am fretting and not the other strings. Unless they happen to be in the chord I'm playing. Allot of the time the strings/notes I'm fretting are not adjacent to each other. If I am fingering/fretting four strings there isn't any way to barr the neck.

Like allot of things on the guitar you just keep trying untell one day you're doing it and by then you don't realize you've accomplished something.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:00 PM
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Barres and half barres are just another way of forming chords. You should be adept using them.
I use them or don't depending on what best fits the situation. No big deal.

As per those double stops, what MC5C said.
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  #11  
Old 07-19-2018, 11:54 AM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beninma View Post
I may be I still need to investigate some more setup advice. There is a complex relationship here for me where I have to fret the notes harder to hit the strings harder without buzzing to get good tone when I'm this far up the neck.
Good setup could be the key here. Lowering the action worked for me with problems playing up the neck.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:57 PM
beninma beninma is offline
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Thanks for all the advice... still working on it, I think with some more practice it may be fine on my acoustic with the 2-string barres. It could actually be more practice will toughen up the pad of my 3rd finger to the point it gets easier. It's real obvious to me that my first finger is tougher in that area probably because of playing regular old barre chords.

My acoustic is a Taylor, I've made sure it's setup at the lower end of their specification already.. probably not going to improve the setup anymore without some real expert help.
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