Nylon string recommendations.

[SteveHung]

I recently purchased a Takamine CD132 for under $500. I'm not a conservatory student or a serious classical player, but rather a steel string player who decided to delve a bit into the world of nylon string. For me, this Takamine has worked out well for me so far in accomplishing my goals for playing classical/Spanish guitar stuff.

[scottishrogue]

Originally Posted by rickyc

Why do all of the nylon string guitars use that funny wrap instead of ball end strings? It sure looks easier. I just inherited a Kirk Sands and have never restrung a nylon but don't think I could make it look as pretty as the wrapped one. I see they sell ball end nylon sets, so why not?

This is a common misunderstanding when players switch from steel string guitars to classical guitars. Ball-end nylon strings are not intended for use on classical guitars...EVER!!! The bracing used in the construction and the thickness of the soundboard of a classical guitar are very fragile, and too weak to handle the tension of the ball-end strings, because their is usually no bridge plate. Their use will cause problems down the road, starting with bridge lift from the increase in the break angle, dips and bellying of the soundboard and eventually cracks, because the soundboard is much thinner.

Ball-end nylon strings are intended for use with a pin style bridge, as the bracing on standard acoustic guitars is strong enough to handle higher tension. Nylon strings are used frequently on smaller parlor style guitars to achieve a warmer, richer sound.

The wrap on the end of classical strings is intended to avoid slippage as the strings settle. It should be located past the saddle, and also above the nut. Using the wrong type of strings (ball-end) is the fastest way to DESTROY a classical guitar with a tie-block bridge. All you need to do is look at the strings used by any well-known classical guitarist on YouTube. And, btw...Willie doesn't count! The bridge on his Martin has been reinforced. I hope that has answered your question.

Glen

This is an antique Spanish guitar, on which some idiot decided to use ball-end nylon strings...notice the cracks on both sides of the fretboard.

[Garthman]

Still flogging the horse, Glenn?

I will say it once again: it is perfectly OK to use ball-end strings on a classical guitar. They do not exert a higher tension than the equivalent loop-end string.

[scottishrogue]

Garthman, I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but sometimes it's beneficial to do a wee bit of research, first. I'd be interested to know your source for the claim you made

The ball-end nylon strings are cheaper to buy, and lower in overall quality, and I have NEVER seen any "professional" classical guitarist use them. It's just not done. The reason being, THEY'RE NOT INTENDED FOR USE ON A CLASSICAL GUITAR! They are most often used on parlor guitars that have a tailpiece and floating bridge, or a folk guitar with a pin-style bridge, and X type bracing to achieve a warmer tone. Classical guitars usually have fan-style bracing, often scalloped and a much thinner soundboard, often without any bridge plate. And I'll be flogging this horse as long as necessary.

Glen

[wcap]

I LOVE Savarez Alliance strings on my Burguet classical. I use the high tension version.

They last a long time, and they sound wonderful. They really have transformed what was already a very nice sounding classical guitar.

[Special B]

Ball-end strings do not inherently have higher tension than loop-end strings. Different string makers use different tensions. If you find a set of ball-end strings with the same tension as the loop-end set you normally use, those ball-end strings will work fine.

Ball-end nylon strings are made for "folk" guitars, which are similar to Torres-style classical guitars but have pin bridges and are generally lower quality and meant for casual playing (they are also not very popular nor common). These ball-end strings are not normally used on real classical guitars because classical guitarists like tradition and there is a MUCH larger selection of high quality loop-end nylon strings made to fit that traditional demand (even though pin bridges were used on "old" classical guitars before the "new" classical style with the tied/looped strings). The Torres style classical guitar is actually post-classical period and pin bridges are even older. Anyways....

La Belle (Mari) makes good nylon strings in both loop-ends and ball-ends. If you select the right tension, ball-end nylon strings will not damage your classical guitar.

Why have loop-ends at all? They really are not hard to put on. I can put a loop-end nylon string on as fast as a ball-end, and without needing a tool to get the pins out. Loop-ends are actually easier and faster, with a little practice. That is why loop-ends actually replaced pin bridges, not the other way around. Steel strings can't make the loops, which is why pin bridges came back for those guitars.

You can put nylon strings on a steel string guitar, but you will have to make modifications and will end up with a lousy nylon string guitar. Nylon strings are far lower tension, so they vibrate in a wider and longer ellipse, meaning you will have to raise the action to prevent buzz and may have trouble fingering chords (as the strings may vibrate against your chording fingers with the skinnier fretboard). Nylon string guitars have much less bracing, which is not only allowable due to the lower string tension, but also needed. With a steel-string guitar's stiff top, the nylon strings will produce very little volume, resonance, and tone. I have never heard of a serious or professional guitar player putting nylon strings on a quality steel string guitar; though I am sure many people do it. Just buy a quality nylon string guitar. The pin bridge folk guitars I mentioned earlier are purpose built nylon string guitars, not made for either/or material.. Ball-end nylon strings are made (explicitly) for those folk guitars, NOT for people to use on steel string guitars.

D'Addario strings are nice because they have many different types/materials that follow the same tension scheme. So if you find a tension you like, you can try many of their different sets and have nearly the exact same tension and feel while experimenting with different tones. But I think their G strings tend to be really bad (even in the "titanium" set). I like their olive green "composite" G string (which is another plastic, not nylon), but it looks a little funny.

[scottishrogue]

Special B, welcome to the AGF. I very much enjoyed reading your comments on this thread and others, and I hope you visit often. I look forward to reading comments like yours.

However, I think you missed something with regard to the discussion. While there are many members that like to delve into the nitty-gritty, there are many members that are looking for simple answers. Selecting the right strings for any guitar can get very complicated very quickly. String tension, break angle, different styles of guitars, music theory...it can be very overwhelming for many people, and especially for noobs.

When you stated, "If you select the right tension, ball-end nylon strings will not damage your classical guitar." while that is possible, it's very misleading for someone who is already overwhelmed with so much information, because they are going to forget the caveat you included. The specific string tension is not specified on the outer package of most strings, as most guitar players with little knowledge or experience rely on the general terms light, extra light, custom light, medium, or high tension, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Some rely on the information they read right here on the AGF...at least the smartest ones do!

We all have a responsibility to pass on accurate information to others who want to learn, and we all have our own opinions about what is right and wrong. I could say that guitars make great kindling wood, and even though that might be accurate, that doesn't make it right.

The luthiers that I have spoken with usually respond quite emphatically when asked about using ball-end nylon strings on a classical guitar. Here are a few responses, "Ball end nylon strings do have their place - just not on fine classical guitars. They are inferior compared to most available high quality nylon string sets - when put on a finer classical guitar. It would be like putting regular gas in your Ferrari -- why?? There is plenty of high octane available!"

Another responded, "Those are NOT CLASSICAL GUITAR STRINGS.. they are made to use on Acoustic Guitars for special sounds and not for general use. Go buy a regular set of NYLON STRINGS with no ball ends and put them on. You DO know how to lash the strings on, I hope. You should only use regular classical nylon strings on a classical guitar. Ball end strings are designed for a pin bridge and classical guitars have a tie bridge."

And finally, "I would not try that under any circumstances, as the tension may be substantially greater than the correct classical strings. If the total string tension is too high you will warp the top and/or rip off the bridge."

I, being a pragmatist, would just simply say, "If you want to avoid damaging your classical guitar, it's just not done!"

Glen

[Paikon]

Generally the good brands don't have ball ends but I don't thing that's because they can harm your guitar...its mostly because of tradition or even cost.
I 've used TI classic S series strings (Ball end, 30$ per set) on my classical guitars for years with no problem at all.

[zhunter]

One could always use these:

http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/s...bone-7730.html

While I think I get that a big part of the discussion is inferiority or uncertainty around available ball end strings. If that is the basis for concern for over stressing the top, I can neither confirm or deny that possibility. However, the availability and use of a product like string beads demonstrates there is nothing inherently structurally unacceptable with the ball end approach which the string beads emulate.

I would expect better quality strings are available with tie ends. If quality is less of a concern that ease of use, then the remaining consideration is tension. If the ball end tension is known to be equivalent to the tie end, I see no issue with ball end. And, no I don't use ball ends and wouldn't know a set to recommend.

A decent everyday string is the D'Addario Pro Arte or Pro Arte Composite. Relatively inexpensive decent quality and sound. I use em on all my acoustic electric and student nylons. I like Savarez HT Classics on my better acoustic only flamencos.

hunter

[WaddyT]

The Martin, ball end nylon strings, in high tension, are about the same tension as the D'Addario EJ46 high tension nylon strings, which is a pretty good standard. I'd bet the Martin strings are probably made by D'Addario, though I coulld be wrong on that. There aren't but a few string makers out there, and they all make private labels.

Anyway, I would not think a ball end string would damage a normal classical guitar. Most reasonably built classical guitars, hand built or production, are strong enough to handle nylon strings within any manufactured norm of strings available, including Hannabach, which tend to be higher than most when comparing. Admitted, the ball end strings are intended for pin bridges, but they are no worse than those "Bridge Bone" things they sell to get a better break angle on a standard 6 string tie block.

My guitars are generally built to perform at their optimum on normal tension strings, but I have no problems with high tension strings working fine, and no worries about the normal range of nylon strings being used on them. What happens is that higher tension strings tend to sound a bit louder with a normal hand, but in reality, just cap the dynamic range of the guitar in the end. Normal strings, on my instruments, seem to have a much broader dynamic range.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by WaddyT

What happens is that higher tension strings tend to sound a bit louder with a normal hand, but in reality, just cap the dynamic range of the guitar in the end. Normal strings, on my instruments, seem to have a much broader dynamic range.

So will maximum volume actually be greater with normal tension strings than high tension strings?

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by wcap

So will maximum volume actually be greater with normal tension strings than high tension strings?

IMO it depends to guitars but also to guitar technique of the player...for instance a player with physical strength on his fingers needs harder strings or ,on a different view , a player with no physical strength on fingers cant get the best out of hard strings

[WaddyT]

Originally Posted by Paikon

IMO it depends to guitars but also to guitar technique of the player...for instance a player with physical strength on his fingers needs harder strings or a player with no physical strength on fingers cant get the best out of hard strings

I disagree, a bit. In my experience, on my guitars, high tension strings sound a bit louder with normal playing, but tend to hog tie the headroom of the guitar. That is, it stops getting louder sooner. The higher tension acts like a choke to the top. The additional pull on the bridge actually reduces the tops ability to vibrate as well. When you put normal tension on, it isn't as loud with the average playing, but gets louder, the harder you play, and can get louder with normal tension than with high tension strings. It is also easier to play softer, which is much harder to do with high tension.

This might be less of a problem with production guitars, as they are built with a bit more heft in the bracing and top.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by WaddyT

I disagree, a bit. In my experience, on my guitars, high tension strings sound a bit louder with normal playing, but tend to hog tie the headroom of the guitar. That is, it stops getting louder sooner. The higher tension acts like a choke to the top. The additional pull on the bridge actually reduces the tops ability to vibrate as well. When you put normal tension on, it isn't as loud with the average playing, but gets louder, the harder you play, and can get louder with normal tension than with high tension strings. It is also easier to play softer, which is much harder to do with high tension.

This might be less of a problem with production guitars, as they are built with a bit more heft in the bracing and top.

I believe you....I hope people will try both tensions and decide for themselves what suit them...

[Garthman]

Originally Posted by Special B

Ball-end strings do not inherently have higher tension than loop-end strings. Different string makers use different tensions. If you find a set of ball-end strings with the same tension as the loop-end set you normally use, those ball-end strings will work fine.. . . . .

Thank you, Special B.

Nice to see some correct comments here.

And thank you too, Waddy T.