Have Other Steel String Players Completely Switched To Nylon?

[open-road-matt]

This is a fun thread! Thanks for all the great posts!

I had some time this morning and I have my sound system set up in our basement so I took both guitars down there to try them out.

Here are some things I've noticed when comparing steel string to nylon string with the music that I play:

Nylon string seems to breathe more. The sound strikes me as being more musical than the same song played on my steel string. There seems to be more space between the notes and more room for subtlety (little pulls, hammer on's, extra notes, etc.)

Along those same lines, with nylon there is more room for my voice! I'm not a good enough guitarist to ever play an instrumental piece. My guitar has always been an excuse to sing songs. With steel string guitars there has always been competition between my voice and my guitar in my live mix. I like a very natural live sound. I don't use any effects and I don't want my vocals unnaturally louder than my guitar. I want a nice blend. That has been VERY hard for me because I want a rich, full guitar sound too. I have often have to bump up my vocal mic several times during a show or I'll catch myself pushing to get my vocals "on top" of my guitar. This can be especially tough during stretches of many shows in a row. With my nylon string, I feel like I'm getting the full, rich, complex guitar sound with room for my voice!

Another thing I've noticed with my VERY limited experience with nylon is that it seems to be easier to amplify. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I just got lucky and got a guitar that I think sounds great plugged in. Maybe I'll get pickier over time as my ear develops and gets used to the tone of nylon strings. But I do think I have a pretty good ear and for the music I play, I think my guitar sounds great plugged in with almost no EQ'ing. I would be embarrassed to list the guitars, pickups, preamps, cables, strings, picks, etc. etc, that I've been through in the last 5 years chasing tone in the steel string world! I've even had 3 sources in a Goodall through a Pendulum SPS-1 preamp! Even with my current guitar, the best steel string I've ever played with a great pickup I still find things wrong with the tone. With my nylon, I plug in, I play, I'm happy!

Maybe these things are very obvious to nylon players. Maybe that's why a lot of folks here have switched to nylon. Those are just some things I noticed this morning and I thought I'd share.

I also know that it doesn't have to be steel vs. nylon and there is always room for both. These are just things I'm pondering as I think of which guitar to bring on the road, whether to keep a steel string, etc, etc.

Enjoy the day!
Matt

[ferg]

Matt -

This is something I've been toying with as well. I recently got a Cordoba Fusion 14 RS at a super cut-rate price. I wasn't necessarily even looking to make the switch, but I've had it in the back of my mind for quite some time. I have a tendency to get over-aggressive with my attack on steel string during more intense parts of songs, and I thought a nylon might force me to lighten my attack, so I went for it.

It came, and it was like playing a cheese grater. This is a known with these Cordobas - seems like the sound, playability, intonation, etc is very good, but there are quality issues with certain things...fortunately, the guitar was cheap enough that I could just use it as a project...I filed the frets down, adjusted the neck and tied down some wires inside (there was a buzz being caused by them), and voila! It ends up being very nice, and the electronics are actually very good.

And, like you, I can't put it down.

If I had to wager, I'd guess your a better guitar player than I am, but, like you, I definitely wouldn't ever consider playing an instrumental piece live - the guitar is accompaniment for singing. I'm playing with a flat pick now, and just altering the arrangements of my songs in subtle ways that I think work better with the nylon string.

Even though the nylon string I got is a "crossover", and doesn't have the full 2" classical nut, it's still noticeably wider than my steel string (I think my steel string is a 1 11/16" vs this 1 7/8"). As a result, I've been adjusting to fingering chords, etc, BUT, what I've noticed is that anything beyond that I do is made much easier by the wider string spacing. The limited amount of fingerpicking I do is much easier. What I do more commonly, though, is strum, with occasional hitting of single strings, hammer ons, etc, etc - and I find that this is much, much easier with the nylon string.

I haven't used it live yet. One thing I wrestle with is that I'm just not sure I can use the nylon for EVERY song, and I really don't want to deal with 2 guitars at a gig...so, we'll see. I kind of want to make the jump...I keep thinking...if I like this cheap guitar so much - how much would I like an even nicer one?

When I bought this Cordoba, I figured it would either become a "first" nylon that I would upgrade, or it would become a permanent (and very likeable) "around-the-house" guitar. Now, I'm pretty sure I'll upgrade at some point, and, much like you, I'll be looking at the Taylors. I'm not sure if I'll every be able to justify going all the way to a 72/74, but I think I'll start my search with the 32/34, and go from there...but that's for another day...

BTW - THANK for the mention of the strings with the wound G - I'm DEFINITELY going to try them. If there's one thing that I'm a little less than thrilled with with this guitar, it's that the G string is a little dull, and I'm certain that will help. I also think that will help this guitar fit a little better into the style of some of my songs.

[Play2PraiseHim]

Originally Posted by ferg

Matt -

This is something I've been toying with as well. I recently got a Cordoba Fusion 14 RS at a super cut-rate price. I wasn't necessarily even looking to make the switch, but I've had it in the back of my mind for quite some time. I have a tendency to get over-aggressive with my attack on steel string during more intense parts of songs, and I thought a nylon might force me to lighten my attack, so I went for it.

It came, and it was like playing a cheese grater. This is a known with these Cordobas - seems like the sound, playability, intonation, etc is very good, but there are quality issues with certain things...fortunately, the guitar was cheap enough that I could just use it as a project...I filed the frets down, adjusted the neck and tied down some wires inside (there was a buzz being caused by them), and voila! It ends up being very nice, and the electronics are actually very good.
U
And, like you, I can't put it down.

If I had to wager, I'd guess your a better guitar player than I am, but, like you, I definitely wouldn't ever consider playing an instrumental piece live - the guitar is accompaniment for singing. I'm playing with a flat pick now, and just altering the arrangements of my songs in subtle ways that I think work better with the nylon string.

Even though the nylon string I got is a "crossover", and doesn't have the full 2" classical nut, it's still noticeably wider than my steel string (I think my steel string is a 1 11/16" vs this 1 7/8"). As a result, I've been adjusting to fingering chords, etc, BUT, what I've noticed is that anything beyond that I do is made much easier by the wider string spacing. The limited amount of fingerpicking I do is much easier. What I do more commonly, though, is strum, with occasional hitting of single strings, hammer ons, etc, etc - and I find that this is much, much easier with the nylon string.

I haven't used it live yet. One thing I wrestle with is that I'm just not sure I can use the nylon for EVERY song, and I really don't want to deal with 2 guitars at a gig...so, we'll see. I kind of want to make the jump...I keep thinking...if I like this cheap guitar so much - how much would I like an even nicer one?

When I bought this Cordoba, I figured it would either become a "first" nylon that I would upgrade, or it would become a permanent (and very likeable) "around-the-house" guitar. Now, I'm pretty sure I'll upgrade at some point, and, much like you, I'll be looking at the Taylors. I'm not sure if I'll every be able to justify going all the way to a 72/74, but I think I'll start my search with the 32/34, and go from there...but that's for another day...

BTW - THANK for the mention of the strings with the wound G - I'm DEFINITELY going to try them. If there's one thing that I'm a little less than thrilled with with this guitar, it's that the G string is a little dull, and I'm certain that will help. I also think that will help this guitar fit a little better into the style of some of my songs.

After comparing your Cordoba to a Taylor NS, don't be surprised if you discover that the crossovers with the richer more complex voices are those that are made by classical guitar makers vs steel string makers. Most crossovers made by steel string makers excel when plugged in but lack projection and complexity unplugged.


As to the original point of this thread, I have realized that my nylon not only forces me to be a better player but I desire to play it more. No listening or playing fatigue is experienced. It is a peaceful experience altogether.

[Hack Amatuer]

hum, I almost exclusively play my nyloner, I like the sound better. I have a steel stringer and like it too but I play different things on it.

[Ray B]

Until a few weeks ago I had not played a nylon stringed guitar in 40 years. I got the itch to hear "that sound" ... not to replace my steel string guitars ... but to supplement them. I was fortunate to get a carbon fiber nylon string from Blackbird Guitars (a Super OM) with passive RMC pickup system (no polydrive, etc.).

It has been a treat for me to play! I haven't yet added it to my "gigging" guitars, although I can see it happening soon.

Like Matt indicated, I started playing it with a thumbpick and plastic Alaska piks, just like I do with the other guitars, but I'm beginning to play it more and more with just my thumb and fingers. I like the feel and the sound ... and it seems like some tunes are just a better fit with the nylon sound. Plus, with the RMC pickup I get so much sound in my small acoustic amps, that using picks is definitely not necessary. (I get a lot more sound [amplified] from the nylon played without picks, than I do with the steel string guitars played with picks. I use LR Baggs M1-A, and LR Baggs Stage Pro Element pickups in the steel string guitars.)

I don't think I'll go completely nylon, but I'm sure glad that I've added it to guitars I have.

Ray

[Turp]

I havd never played nylon ; knew nothing other about them than they had a wide neck. Bought one at a pawn shop while at the beach because it was there, I was curious, and always wanted to have a guitar at the beach.

I found a new experience. Later that year I bought a NS42ce while demoing several steels strings.

What opened my horizon is the expressive capability of nylon that is so easily accessible.

I'm back on steel mostly but never wander far from nylon. Of late I have sold the NS42ce and moved to a Cordoba( as seen in my threads) the Taylor is nice but I wanted a little more of what I liked in my Taylor but was on bit of a budget, which excluded the NS72ce. As it turned out the Cordoba has been great move for me and achieved what I was looking for.

[rasqual]

Dittos on the Blackbird; I'm soon receiving a Nylon Rider with the RMC.

I've only begun taking guitar seriously in recent years at all, and fingerstyle has become my main interest. I had an epiphany with a classical on one occasion (really, it was like light breaking through; a particular left hand problem I was having disappeared in a counter-intuitive way when I tried it on a wide neck) and my weak nails do fine with nylon. I find my ability to control dynamics is dramatically better on nylon as well.

I do two things with guitar: (a) gig in church and (b) spend a lot of time just workin' up go-nowhere 16 bar tunes. Composing has proven to be a joy.

My need, then, is for a guitar that's as good plugged as unplugged. I'm also an outdoorsy type always on the move, and our climate gets dry here in Chicago about now. The Blackbird is great acoustically (percussive play is "plasticy", alas), with the RMC is just stunning plugged in, and is impervious to climate issues.

I only customized the tuners and the RMC plug (the stock one is not fun).

With proper electronics (in possession), the nylon can sound quite a bit like steel for when I need that -- which is frequent in church.

I won't sell off my sole steel instrument (an Ovation), but the Rider will join my Dauphin classical so there's a clear majority moving forward. ;-)

[Kindness]

I did not know anyone made a nylon CF guitar! Very interesting. Sounds like you guys really like the Blackbird too!

[Ray B]

Originally Posted by itself

I did not know anyone made a nylon CF guitar! Very interesting. Sounds like you guys really like the Blackbird too!

Lisa: Blackbird has been producing the Nylon Rider for some time, I think primarily as a travel guitar; but, it is seems to be an awsome instrument. I've seen/heard it in New Orleans being played by "Dorise," a street musician, and was quite impressed.

Blackbird recently produced a total of 5 Super OM nylon string guitars, and I was fortunate enough to get one of them. I don't know if Joe has plans to build any more.

Ray

[Kindness]

Ray,

The Blackbird does look good, too bad they went with a 2 inch nut, I am spoiled with the 49.5mm nut on my classical.

The OM Nylon must be REALLY nice!

[Ryan Alexander]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Ryan,
Why do you regret selling your steel string? That is something I've been pondering. I talked with a friend of mine today who plays primarily nylon and he said it would be nice to have a steel string around for when the steel string mood hits but we both agreed that a Collings (my current steel string) is probably too much guitar to have just "laying around!"

Matt

Personally, I`ve invested too much time into steel string technique and repertoire to walk away from it completely. I`ve owned 5k+ guitars, but I don`t feel I need to go back to that level to be satisfied - I just learned that I do need some kind of SS around.

[yairisan]

Seems odd to entirely switch from one to another type of guitar almost exclusively. Some songs just sound better on steel string, and vice versa. I just listed a 20-song set I'll be playing over the weekend, and there is a fairly even balance of steel and nylon, because of the nature of the tunes. Would certainly not be as happy tackling all tunes on only one or other instrument.

Strummy tunes: invariably the steel string, with just a few exceptions

Fingerpicking tunes: if it's a slow, moody number, which requires sustained notes, then the steel string gets first consideration; for songs with lots of movement, or very simple but nice dark supporting tones, I give the nylon a go first

Composition: either, although I kind of favor the nylon as it has that richness in tone that is always inspiring, plus the ease of play and wider neck begs for experimentation (at least, a little less painful experimentation!). But there have been several occasions where something born of the nylon eventually finds its place on the steel string. I can't think of an instance where the opposite has occured.

Both have their place, and I like to keep my hand in with both, though probably to the detriment of really ever coming to total grips with either, which is probably par for the course for me anyway

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by yairisan

Seems odd to entirely switch from one to another type of guitar almost exclusively. Some songs just sound better on steel string, and vice versa. I just listed a 20-song set I'll be playing over the weekend, and there is a fairly even balance of steel and nylon, because of the nature of the tunes. Would certainly not be as happy tackling all tunes on only one or other instrument.

I sort of agree but I think the biggest factor is the style of music.

I think the "certain guitars for certain moods" theory is much more applicable to instrumentals, especially if you are playing well known pieces done by players that are either nylon or steel string players.

I prefer all of my original songs on nylon. The nylon gives the music a softer, more open, more laid-back feel that I think better fits the character and vibe of my music. But I'm a singer/songwriter with a folk/country style and the words and overall vibe of my songs will always be more important than just the guitar.

Another consideration for me is the logistics of adding another instrument to the show. I already switch off between a guitar and an ukulele. And since all the hauling, set up, tear down, tuning, string changing, instrument switching, etc. etc. is my job, I don't know that it is worth it to bring a steel string too simply because some songs might be a bit better on steel.

So I know it doesn't have to be one or the other but as I ponder going out on the road, I know I will probably only bring one guitar and one ukulele. That is why I raise the question of steel OR nylon.

Matt

[jmiked]

I switched completely away from steel strings to nylon around 1968 or so. I bought a Goya G17 in 1962 and was just so impressed with the sound that I finally sold my other guitar (Gretsch Country Gent) and played only the Goya until about 2000, when I bought a Gibson Chet Atkins CE solid body nylon. Two years later I got a Taylor NS32ce and these latter two are my main guitars, although I now have 5 or 6 electric steel strings. The Goya has suffered the dreaded sunken top and can’t be played anymore, to my great sadness.

Mike

[ferg]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Another consideration for me is the logistics of adding another instrument to the show. I already switch off between a guitar and an ukulele. And since all the hauling, set up, tear down, tuning, string changing, instrument switching, etc. etc. is my job, I don't know that it is worth it to bring a steel string too simply because some songs might be a bit better on steel.

This is nowhere NEAR my job (currently gigging about twice per month), and I have the same attitude. I don't want to deal with the logistics of 2 guitars. For one thing, my mixer won't allow for it, and I don't want a bigger mixer to keep them both hooked up. My steel string is a dual source (2 outputs), so it's not even as simple as switching a cable (it wouldn't be even if both were single source, as they'd be EQ'd differently), but even just dealing with bringing both guitars - not worth it for me.

I'm only 2 weeks into Nylon-ownership. I love the guitar, and am really toying with switching to it, but there are some songs that just won't work on it as currently arranged...once I work that out, I may change my mind, but I have to stick with the steel for gigging now.