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  #1  
Old 08-18-2018, 09:33 AM
Gitaman Gitaman is offline
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Default Any darkening of wood veneers?

Per exotic wood handlers, all wood degrades in color, mostly fading of some colors while turning darker brown to black like over time.
Here is the link:

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...-exotic-woods/

Did any of members' fade in contrast and/or turn black? Cocobolo was described as turning darker towards black almost.
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  #2  
Old 08-18-2018, 09:53 AM
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Gitaman;

Really good question. I worked wood for 40 years and, now that you mention it, I would guess that the veneers could change. The guess leads to the notion that maybe the woodies should not be left in ambient light, particularly sunlight.

Along the same lines, I have an artist friend who sold a limited series of prints to a man who hung that work where it got lots of light--in five years the prints had faded to almost nothing. I've had wood work that faded to the point where the grain lines were barely discernible.

This is a subject worth weighing in on, thanks for brining it up--I've been leaving my woody out on the stand, a practice that just came to an end, it will now be on the stand, in a bag.
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  #3  
Old 08-18-2018, 10:37 AM
Gitaman Gitaman is offline
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EvanB,
Thanks, though I must admit that the question arose out of selfish concern, hehe.

Anyhow, from what little I read,

1. UV and oxidation are major causes of change.
2. Metal enclosure is the only way to prevent the process. A good example would be potatochip bags lined with aluminum inside.
3. Wood goes from FRESH CUT COLOR to SETTLED IN COLOR in time.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:33 AM
jwellsy jwellsy is offline
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I doubt Oxygen can get to the veneer through the resin.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:09 PM
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I believe it's the UVs that should be of concern. A bag should take care of the potential problem.
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  #6  
Old 08-19-2018, 02:23 AM
Gitaman Gitaman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
I believe it's the UVs that should be of concern. A bag should take care of the potential problem.
I agree UV causes the most harm in most conditions. In addition, oxygen, water, or other matters in gaseous state will permeate through plastic and even resin. Thickness and what material it is will affect the rate. For our discussion, it may not be a significant facter.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:16 AM
mot mot is offline
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Probably need to have someone do an A/B comparison. All an experimenter (Kramster perhaps) needs to do is get two identical woodies from Alistair and keep one out all the time and leave the other in the case. Every year or so take a side by side picture assuming they have the photographic skills and props needed to take properly artistic shots. Hint, hint!

For a slightly more serious answer I think it depends on the wood and the finish on how a veneer will change. I have a really old clarinet (mpingo) that got lighter in the sun I think, and I replaced some oak in a section of floor with slightly lighter wood that darkened to about the same shade after a year or so exposure to sun. The clarinet is about twice my age, so I could be wrong, but I have another of the same wood that is much darker though it could be a different finish as they are different brands. I suspect it's the sun exposure that's the causal factor, but I don't know. Varnished versus unvarnished fences change at a different rates, so it's a combination of type of wood and finish on how something will change.

So my best guess without experimenting with a bunch of A/B testing is that sun exposure will likely change the veneer slightly (lighter and/or darker depending on wood as finish should push the change in a consistent way and Alistair probably can weigh in on sun or UV effects on finish), but it probably won't harm the acoustics of these tough instruments. There may be slight warping, cracking, glue softening and other undesirable outcomes that are more likely in less robust wood guitars left too long in the sun, but I am guessing that these CF guitars are tough enough that you can leave it out of the bag and just "shut up and play" without any worry. Of course I don't have a woody, so I guess I need to get one or two sooner than later.
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:12 AM
zeeway zeeway is offline
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Ultraviolet light is the culprit, and is very difficult to avoid, unless you and your guitars live in a lead-lined vault. Most woods will darken over time, sometimes producing beautiful new colors, and sometimes turning nearly black. Cocobolo apparently is one that darkens severely over time.

I would say just play and cherish what you have. As for my black X20... hmmm, I might tell friends it once had an exotic wood embedded in the soundboard that turned completely black.
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  #9  
Old 08-19-2018, 08:54 AM
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If Alistair will send me two identical woodies I'll gladly compare one in the sun with one in the shade, with no charge. Well, I might charge a bit for storage and administrative costs.
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Old 08-19-2018, 09:08 AM
seamusknives seamusknives is offline
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With 20 years of using wood species for knife handle scales that Emerald sometimes uses, if I were to order a guitar with a veneer it would be one with high contrast between the heartwood and sapwood. Often, all the factors mentioned by others cause the color contrast to be significantly lost.
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  #11  
Old 08-19-2018, 10:43 AM
kramster kramster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeeway View Post
As for my black X20... hmmm, I might tell friends it once had an exotic wood embedded in the soundboard that turned completely black.
Nice play!
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Last edited by Kerbie; 08-19-2018 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Fixed quote
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  #12  
Old 08-19-2018, 11:41 AM
Gitaman Gitaman is offline
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Default Infusion of clear nanoparticled sunscreen ingrediients

Too bad Cocobolo will get very dark over time.

These days, there are clear nanoparticles used as sunscreen made of super small sized Zinc oxide or titanium dioxide. Wonder if it is compatable with the resin. If so, it should slow the effect of UV significantly.
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  #13  
Old 08-19-2018, 02:48 PM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Cocobolo will darken in time - less so if it has been finished. There are a plenty of Taylors out there with cocobolo that still look gorgeous. They have a nice finish on them. Sealing a thin veneer in epoxy would be a "lifetime" of beauty for a guy my age.

In my younger years, I did woodworking for "relaxation"... I put that in quotes because I used to call cocobolo "crackobolo" - while turning a piece of cocobolo, I would break one for each completed piece. But, the wood looks so good that it was worth the frustration. I still have a couple small cocobolo pieces I made 20 years ago, and they still look good; only used French polish on them to bring out the shine and grain structure.

As I mentioned in another post, almost everything will take a beating if left in direct sunlight. Using a guitar for an outdoor gig isn't going to make the wood (or veneer) degrade. Putting your guitar (or drapes, carpet, car, boat, art piece, etc, etc) where it is exposed to afternoon sunlight in the desert southwest isn't a smart move. But, you buy a carbon fiber guitar with the consideration that it is built to take the rigors of how you will prudently use a guitar. And, that beautiful wood veneer encased in epoxy is going to last and look good SO MUCH longer than the same wood on any guitar.

Consider the spruce than many guitar manufacturers use on their tops - and how it darkens somewhat in just a few years (Ever see what happens when you remove a pick guard?), especially compared to the rosewood, mahogany, or cocobolo back and sides. Yet, you rarely hear of anyone lamenting about that.

My advice is to enjoy the instrument. If you are worried about the wood veneer, go with all carbon fiber. If you like the wood veneer, order it and enjoy it. I have a lovely louro preto veneer on my X20 - it is hanging on the wall whenever we are home, and it looks as good a year and a half later as it did when I first opened the case. While it is pretty, it is the sound and feel that makes the playing experience.

Most folks will put some thought into what color they pick for a car; but when you're getting the best driving experience, it isn't because the car is red. Or black. Leave it parked in the sun everyday and the color will fade. But, you don't buy a car to leave it parked. And sure not to leave it in the garage.

The Emerald woodies are all about the looks... and that is not a bad thing! Play 'em. Enjoy 'em. Take care of them, but it would be a darn shame to hide that beauty away.

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  #14  
Old 08-19-2018, 07:03 PM
mot mot is offline
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Cap'n,

I think you said it better than I did.
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PS If you don't want to invest in yourself, why should anyone else even bother to try?
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  #15  
Old 08-20-2018, 12:02 AM
Gitaman Gitaman is offline
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Convincingly stated.

Aye aye, Capt.!
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