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Old 07-19-2018, 09:30 AM
SouthpawJeff SouthpawJeff is offline
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Default Philosophical question on classical guitar music....?

Or maybe just a dumb question🙂. If one sits down at a piano to play a piece of music there is, I believe, only one correct way to play that piece. Each note on the page has its own individual home on the keyboard and that’s it. Now when we arrange that same piece of music for guitar we often have multiple options for note placement. Which means potentially there can be multiple “ways” to play the piece with none necessarily being more or less correct than another.

So to my silly question... with this potential for multiple arrangements are there some considered “standard”? So for example if you were to enter a music program there’s a particular “accepted” version used? Or is it more that as long as it sounds correct and you can play it... all is good?

My reason for asking is related to my other post in that I’m going to attempt to learn some beginner classical pieces. So when I look online for sheet music and more importantly I guess tab, where there are multiple versions, how do I know I’m getting a “correct” version?

Thanks for bearing with me as I try to learn😉
Jeff
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:19 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Originally Posted by SouthpawJeff View Post
Now when we arrange that same piece of music for guitar we often have multiple options for note placement. Which means potentially there can be multiple “ways” to play the piece with none necessarily being more or less correct than another.
Jeff
Not really many options when you factor in preceding and following notes, note time value control (i.e. damping or otherwise avoiding ringing notes), tonal timber of the notes.

Best to get good sheet music that was originally arranged by the composer or perhaps by a respected guitarist (for example those by Segovia).
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:27 AM
ceciltguitar ceciltguitar is offline
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That's a GREAT question to ask Jeff!

You actually answered your own question, sort of. One of the TERRIFIC qualities of the guitar is EXACTLY what you said: There are multiple possible ways to play each note, each passage. Not only are there multiple string and fret, and sometimes even harmonics locations to play every note, there are also an infinite number of ways to massage the sound with your plucking / strumming hand. It's all a matter of individual choice and taste and preference.

Having said that, being familiar with the stylistic traditions that go with any given period of music is necessary to play music from that period in an "originally authentic" way.

Enjoy the ride!
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:25 AM
SouthpawJeff SouthpawJeff is offline
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Thanks guys. It’s something that’s been tricky for me so far. As an example... one of the pieces I’ve been learning is La Paloma. There are several variations I’ve come across but the one I’m learning is the version close to how Pepe Romero plays. I chose this one b/c I found an online lesson I liked, and b/c it’s hard to argue with the way Pepe played a piece

Maybe this is the best bet for me for now. It’s just that I come across so many “easy beginner versions” on the internet I worry I’ll waste time on something that’s not quite right.

Banks,
Jeff
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:30 AM
redir redir is offline
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Well, there is a middle C on a guitar like there is on the piano but the guitar is a transposing instrument too. Piano middle C is our C at the first fret on the B string one octave down from the piano. There is something to be said about thickness of strings and tone though too. Some pieces will sound better if you make those long reaches or rapid position changes.
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Old 07-24-2018, 01:14 PM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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First thought is that while middle C is one key, you have 10 choices as to which finger you play it with. Second thought is that a guy like Glenn Gould could play a piece and make it completely unique while playing it perfectly to the score. Third thought is that Segovia was known for hosting master classes, and for kicking out players who played a piece that he had played, if they didn't use his fingerings and played it the way that he (Segovia) had notated it. Can't mess with perfection! Final thought is that if you really do want to be a classical guitarist, you need to play the notes on the page as written AND make it your own. You also need to transcribe and develop your own arrangements of pieces. If you are beginning, play it the way it's written and notated, since at least one other person gave it a lot of thought so you know it can be done, and it will be probably more playable and sound better as a result.
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Old 07-24-2018, 01:58 PM
SouthpawJeff SouthpawJeff is offline
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Thanks guys, lots to digest here! I should clarify I don’t want to be a classical guitarist, to even get to an intermediate level would require way more time and commitment than I have available. What I’m trying to do is improve my overall fingerstyle playing by dipping my toes into some classical pieces.

So as I mentioned before I’m trying to learn La Paloma which I bought the music for which was arranged by F. Tárrega. Then I found a lesson which reflects the way Pepe Romero played it which is a bit different. So I ended up with two slightly different versions both of which I’m sure are correct. that led me to wonder how do beginning guitarists, before they arrange a piece for themselves, find a version which is acceptable. Or.... maybe it doesn’t matter as long as it sounds right?

Anyway thanks for putting up with my rambling thoughts on this!
Jeff
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Old 07-29-2018, 11:26 AM
Five Fourths Five Fourths is offline
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Having had lessons, but not formal training, I would say that what matters is how the piece sounds. Exactly how you use your hands/fingers is up to you, as we all have different anatomies.

Take the composer's or arranger's guidance as a starting point. If an alternate fingering, for example, works better for you, then go with it.

If you were using the piece to develop aspects of your technique, then the chosen fingerings, etc would have a purpose beyond simply making the best sounding music possible, as soon as possible.

Outside of that kind of scenario, for a given quality of music, I don't think there is any particular merit to doing it the way _______ did it.

As for "reliable" sheet music, I have tended to look for what others are saying about specific arrangements. I have also searched videos and clips for examples of the pieces in which I'm interested. For example, I decided I like Toru Takemitsu's arrangement of "Yesterday" and other Beatles music by finding his arrangements played on YouTube.

My two cents.

FF
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Old 07-31-2018, 12:20 AM
gigmaster gigmaster is offline
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Forget the sheet music. Just listen to the songs and figure them out, the way 'You' want to play them. If people want to hear an exact note-for-note version of a song, they'll download the mp3. You need to make the music 'Yours'.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:32 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
Forget the sheet music. Just listen to the songs and figure them out, the way 'You' want to play them. If people want to hear an exact note-for-note version of a song, they'll download the mp3. You need to make the music 'Yours'.
While one does need to make the music "one's own", the time to do that is beyond a beginner level. At a beginner level, one goal should be to learn what a particular piece has to teach about technique and interpretation.

If a respected classical guitarist has arranged and fingered a particular piece a specific way, he or she had his reasons for doing so. Understanding those reasons should probably be important to the beginner. If one just plays it the way "You" want to play, one is often stuck within the limitations of one's current knowledge and ability: to grow, one either needs to spend a lot of time in study or follow the lead of someone who is already accomplished at that task.

In answer to the OP's question, part of the chosen fingering has to do with interpreting the music. For example, open strings sound less "round" or "mellow" than playing the same pitch on a lower string at a higher fret. In some circumstances, one might specifically want that sound, even if it isn't the easiest way to play that note. Different people interpret the music different ways. Some interpretations might be more to your liking than others.

That should not be confused with different people arranging for a guitar a piece of music that was written for another instrument. Arranging brings with it lots of room for interpretation of what to include, note-wise, and how to play those notes. Some interpretations/arrangements might be more to your liking than others. Many beginner-level pieces that have been arranged for the guitar are simplified: one arranger simplifies it one way, another arranger simplifies it another way. None are right or wrong, though you might prefer one to another.
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:06 PM
Gae Gae is offline
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My 2 cents:

It depends.

The classical way: The composer/arranger have written a guitar piece and you should play it as it is written. Interpretation is about you capacity of making this composition alive, make it sensitive to you and to the audience.

The "Jazz" way: You have a melody and a chord progression and you play it the way you want (the way you can). Very often adapting at first the tonality to your instrument (guitar) or voice.

Both methods are perfectly "legal". Each one will teach you different approaches to music.
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:30 PM
Mikeleric Mikeleric is offline
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Your supposed problem is eliminated if you just only look at music notation and don’t look at guitar tablature. Then just figure out for yourself where you feel like each note should be best played on the fretboard. Sometimes it is better to play a note high on the neck, sometimes low on the neck. If the music notation has numbers to show finger placement, try the suggested fingerings, but you might figure out a better fingering for yourself.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:14 AM
SouthpawJeff SouthpawJeff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
Forget the sheet music. Just listen to the songs and figure them out, the way 'You' want to play them. If people want to hear an exact note-for-note version of a song, they'll download the mp3. You need to make the music 'Yours'.
Hmmm, I think listening to a classical piece to figure it out without any sheet music would be great.... it would also take me so long to try to figure out a single piece of music I’d likely give up altogether. Also not looking to play for other people, just trying to learn for myself, so no worries there😉
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:49 AM
SouthpawJeff SouthpawJeff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
While one does need to make the music "one's own", the time to do that is beyond a beginner level. At a beginner level, one goal should be to learn what a particular piece has to teach about technique and interpretation.

If a respected classical guitarist has arranged and fingered a particular piece a specific way, he or she had his reasons for doing so. Understanding those reasons should probably be important to the beginner. If one just plays it the way "You" want to play, one is often stuck within the limitations of one's current knowledge and ability: to grow, one either needs to spend a lot of time in study or follow the lead of someone who is already accomplished at that task.

In answer to the OP's question, part of the chosen fingering has to do with interpreting the music. For example, open strings sound less "round" or "mellow" than playing the same pitch on a lower string at a higher fret. In some circumstances, one might specifically want that sound, even if it isn't the easiest way to play that note. Different people interpret the music different ways. Some interpretations might be more to your liking than others.

That should not be confused with different people arranging for a guitar a piece of music that was written for another instrument. Arranging brings with it lots of room for interpretation of what to include, note-wise, and how to play those notes. Some interpretations/arrangements might be more to your liking than others. Many beginner-level pieces that have been arranged for the guitar are simplified: one arranger simplifies it one way, another arranger simplifies it another way. None are right or wrong, though you might prefer one to another.
Thanks Charles, good info there! While I’m not a beginner at guitar, playing fingerstyle and just starting to dip my toes into classical definitely bumps me back down into a beginner category. I don’t feel nearly confident enough to try and render my own interpretation, hopefully someday though. I just feel I need to stick with some kind of established version. Unlike other genres like say rock or blues where there’s more freedom to freelance and make the song your own.


With the couple pieces I’m learning now I’m finding just trying to get the nuance of each individual note is as much if not more work than learning the piece. La Paloma for instance, moves relatively slowly, but trying to get the notes to ring clear, occasionally adding a little vibrato, and minimizing sting squeak iis a challenge for me. I’ve been practicing the first 20 measures off and on for about two months and while I can play it through, its nowhere near an acceptable level of play. So if I had to add the additional challenge of making my own arrangement.... I think the guitar would have gone through the window already😲

Jeff
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:56 AM
SouthpawJeff SouthpawJeff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeleric View Post
Your supposed problem is eliminated if you just only look at music notation and don’t look at guitar tablature. Then just figure out for yourself where you feel like each note should be best played on the fretboard. Sometimes it is better to play a note high on the neck, sometimes low on the neck. If the music notation has numbers to show finger placement, try the suggested fingerings, but you might figure out a better fingering for yourself.
Thanks Mike, unfortunately I can’t read sheet music well enough to do my own arranging. I started trying to arrange the first few measures of Beethoven’s Fur Elise a couple weeks ago and it took me about an hour. Worse yet it just didn’t sound right. I think I need to stick with others arrangements for a little while🙂

Jeff
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