The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 09-27-2023, 06:08 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chugiak, Alaska
Posts: 31,112
Default

Good analogy, Colins.


whm
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-27-2023, 08:35 PM
YamaYairi YamaYairi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 2,623
Default

A friend is lending me a Tonerite tomorrow to try out. I will report back.
I have an Eastman E20OM-MR-TC that I bought used with less than a year on it. It sounds "tight and restricted" to me, with
not enough bass. My E8OM sounded similar when I got it and with vigorous strumming and lots of playing it improved. I want to try the Tonerite to see if I can accelerate the process.
__________________
Warren

My website:
http://draudio56.wix.com/warren-bendler

"It's hard...calming the Beatle inside of me."
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-28-2023, 07:31 AM
davidd davidd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,695
Default

So will someone explain exactly what the TR does to the guitar? How has the physical property changed? How has any change been proved scientifically? (Edited "TR)
__________________
1990 Martin D16-M
Gibson J45
Eastman E8D-TC
Pono 0000-30DC
Yamaha FSX5, LS16, FG830, FSX700SC
Epiphone EF500-RAN
2001 Gibson '58 Reissue LP
2005, 2007 Gibson '60 Reissue LP Special (Red&TV Yel)
1972 Yamaha SG1500, 1978 LP500
Tele's and Strats
1969,1978 Princeton Reverb
1972 Deluxe Reverb
Epiphone Sheraton, Riviera
DeArmond T400
Ibanez AS73
Quilter Superblock US[/I]

Last edited by davidd; 09-28-2023 at 03:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-28-2023, 07:50 AM
Talk2Me Talk2Me is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2023
Posts: 765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidd View Post
So will someone explain exactly what the YR does to the guitar? How has the physical property changed? How has any change been proved scientifically?
the TR (not YR) vibrates the guitar and simulates many hours of playing. That's right there on their website. As to "scientific testing" the closest I've seen is right here at the AGF: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=163754
but feel free to scour the internet for something else.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-28-2023, 10:23 AM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,173
Default

The best scientific test I'm aware of on this is available on the 'Savart Journal' website: It reported no significant objectively measurable difference, if memory serves.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-28-2023, 11:42 AM
Talk2Me Talk2Me is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2023
Posts: 765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carruth View Post
The best scientific test I'm aware of on this is available on the 'Savart Journal' website: It reported no significant objectively measurable difference, if memory serves.
If you mean this article: https://www.savartjournal.org/articles/22/article.pdf I see there's no mention of the actual name of "the commercially available vibration device" they used.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-28-2023, 03:03 PM
Ralph124C41 Ralph124C41 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Southern Tier, New York
Posts: 2,309
Default

I am just about finished with ToneRite-ing (to use it as a verb) four of my five acoustics. I'm finishing with my Alvarez AD30 which has the fewest birthdays of the others. I'm using the more-or-less six-day routine with two days at the lowest setting, two days at the highest setting and two days at the mid point.

The guitars sound fine but I don't know if they sound better actually. They are all "mature" instruments so I don't know how much the ToneRite application can help.

I may start on the fifth guitar tomorrow but Sunday begins "heat season" in my state so the landlord will turn on the fuel heat which will vastly decrease the humity levels in my apartment. It's been down to about 22 percent to 25 percent before I start my two little humidifers which, if lucky, can get me up to around 35 percent humidity. I do keep my guitars in their cases with soundhole humidifers but that procedure really makes using the ToneRite impossible.

The remaining guitar is my Alvarez RD20S, which is my oldest guitar as it was made in 2002. Although considered a "student" guitar, this one has matured very nicely and has a great sound I think. So, again, I don't know how much the ToneRite could do to improve its sound.

I can use it on my beater Esteban American Legacy that I always leave out on the stand. I have no specs about it at all even though I have looked online for anything about it. I don't know what kind of wood it is made from or if it solid or laminated but I assume it's all laminated construction. I don't know when it was made either. So I will use the ToneRite on it.
__________________
Martin X1-DE
Epiphone AJ500MNS
Alvarez AD30
Alvarez AD710
Alvarez RD20S
Esteban American Legacy
Rogue mandolin
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-29-2023, 06:37 AM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mohawk Valley
Posts: 8,669
Default

I have never used one but have read about them way too often. My takeaway is that they are best used with new instruments rather than mature ones. The idea behind them is that they create vibrations which simulate many hours of playing, to which the guitar is supposed to respond in a positive manner. You get to "age" it without beating it up or spending the many many hours to "break it in" in the usual manner.

The issue of their effectiveness is controversial. I would tend to be a doubter but have spoken to way too many people whom I respect who are believers. There are also folks I respect who don't believe they accomplish anything discernible. My strong suspicion is that the ToneRite's effectiveness depends upon the woods used (keeping in mind that one piece of wood in the same species may react differently to another) and also upon construction techniques employed.

There are too many variables at play here for a scientific study to convince anyone, one direction or another. On the other hand, what have you to lose by using one if you have access to it? Answer (the only thing folks widely agree upon): a set of strings. They kill new strings. And that's not much to lose.
__________________
The Bard Rocks

Fay OM Sinker Redwood/Tiger Myrtle
Sexauer L00 Adk/Magnolia For Sale
Hatcher Jumbo Bearclaw/"Bacon" Padauk
Goodall Jumbo POC/flamed Mahogany
Appollonio 12 POC/Myrtle
MJ Franks Resonator, all Australian Blackwood
Goodman J45 Lutz/fiddleback Mahogany
Blackbird "Lucky 13" - carbon fiber
'31 National Duolian
+ many other stringed instruments.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-29-2023, 09:27 AM
redir redir is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mountains of Virginia
Posts: 7,630
Default

It looks like a well done experiment but I'm not sure 3 guitars is a big enough sample size. Nonetheless I'm sticking to it. The Tonerite does something on new guitars. Any guitar maker will tell you that from the very moment you put the very first strings on a just finished guitar the tone metamorphs right before your ears. The next day the guitar dramatically opens up and in about a week it starts to sound what it will sound like for many years to come. The Tonerite speeds up this process. Some makers used to hang their guitars in front of speaker systems for this very reason.

I don't know if the Tonerite would do much for a guitar that has already settled in and is well played. I can imagine that it would for a guitar that has been stored away for many years and closed down. But it certainly does something on a brand new instrument... IMHO of course.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-29-2023, 09:56 AM
rdeane rdeane is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 616
Default

I used a Tonerite (after much online and AGF research) on my new (2023 D18). It sounded good already, but I knew there was more there that it could deliver. I left the Tonerite on the guitar for 144 hours at half intensity. After I removed it I noticed a distinctly more "open" and full sound. Not scientific. But now while I continue to play this guitar (about 6 weeks post-Tonerite), it seems to be developing better tone faster than I would have expected. My guess is that the device gives the instrument a boost that gets it going. I don't think it would work as well on mature instruments, but mine was a baby and needed a little help to get moving. Just my opinion and experience.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-29-2023, 10:22 AM
Sadie-f Sadie-f is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: New England
Posts: 989
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidd View Post
So will someone explain exactly what the TR does to the guitar? How has the physical property changed? How has any change been proved scientifically? (Edited "TR)
I don't care so much what science says, producing new science is my day job, and I'm strong enough technically to know the difference between a luthier who talks accurately about the engineering principles of materials and construction, and those who profess understanding when pretty clearly they've stepped past some fundamental errors.

Guess what? Both kinds of luthiers can build spectacular instruments, just as luthiers and more recently the best factories have been building spectacular instruments for decades or centuries, all based on skills passed down and solid craft.

Perhaps you don't hear the difference between a new guitar and a vintage. People with better ears than mine say a strad violin that's not been played in a long time needs to be warmed up to come back to life.

So arguably some of what happens in an instrument with a soundboard is just age, some is lasting changes due to playing, some is more short term changes.

Then again James Taylor has said guitars wear out.. well the owner of the Lafite Rothschild was quoted saying his favorite vintage was one most people wouldn't have considered opening for another 25+ years, he added "but you would have to like young wine" .. granted, he could also well afford to drink a $500 bottle long before most people would think it best for drinking.

When Richard Hoover gave a talk at Organic Sounds this year (video was posted here), he spoke to this topic when asked, suggesting the use of loudspeakers.

Replicating what one of my instructors did, I took a recording of my OM-28 when brand new (to me, though bought new, the build date was 9 months earlier). I recorded the same passage 3 years later, like hers, mine was a very different instrument after 3 years of playing.

While I've enjoyed the process of letting them age during playing, I'm also open to helping that process along at some point.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-29-2023, 10:37 AM
Piercast Piercast is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abn556 View Post
Some of my acoustics hang in the music room with the electrics and the amps. These guitars get bombarded with loud music from 1 x 12 and 2 x 12 cabs and 12-18 watt tube amps. So my question is what effect does this have on say a new Eastman E10SS or a 2022 Larrivee OM or a 2021 000-18??

+

This reminded me of the time I was giving a factory tour at Guitares Boucher. Completed guitars were hanging on the walls of a closed and sound-insulated room with loud music blasting out 24/7.

The CEO seemed to believe firmly in this part of the process.

Myself, after having tried the Tone-Rite on several instruments, I have not reached any sort of firm conclusion about the effectiveness, or lack thereof.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-29-2023, 04:46 PM
RogerHaggstrom RogerHaggstrom is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 162
Default

Vibrating mostly the strings and not the guitar itself with a ToneRite is not effective. Vibrating the top and the whole guitar directly with, for example, a strapped-on Aquarium air pump is quicker and better.

What you get is a bit more volume and a lot of sustain. And, as a side effect, a subjective better overall sound.

Added vibrations are most effective on new instruments and old unplayed instruments.

Vibrations work best on solid wood, plywood is almost unaffected unless given it intense and long treatment.

Any vibrations added to the guitar body will do the same thing, including speakers at high volume.

72 hours of effective vibration do most of the work on a solid wood guitar, a plywood one needs at least a week, if not more. Overbuilt guitars or big guitars need longer vibration time.

Playing the guitar regularly for a couple of months or a year will do the same thing.

Natural vibrations from playing are probably better and more detailed than the chock treatment with 50/60Hz, but this takes a lot of effort and time. Playing a vibrated guitar will keep it developing nicely, only from an advanced starting point.

If not played, the guitar will revert and lose sustain, volume, and tone. But it doesn't take as long to get it going again as a new guitar with added vibration or playing.

It works. At least it has worked on my first 200 renovations. Something tells me that it will work on number 201 too...
__________________
Many ways to do wrong, fewer ways to do right
www.gammelgura.se
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-29-2023, 05:54 PM
davidd davidd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerHaggstrom View Post
Vibrating mostly the strings and not the guitar itself with a ToneRite is not effective. Vibrating the top and the whole guitar directly with, for example, a strapped-on Aquarium air pump is quicker and better.

What you get is a bit more volume and a lot of sustain. And, as a side effect, a subjective better overall sound.

Added vibrations are most effective on new instruments and old unplayed instruments.

Vibrations work best on solid wood, plywood is almost unaffected unless given it intense and long treatment.

Any vibrations added to the guitar body will do the same thing, including speakers at high volume.

72 hours of effective vibration do most of the work on a solid wood guitar, a plywood one needs at least a week, if not more. Overbuilt guitars or big guitars need longer vibration time.

Playing the guitar regularly for a couple of months or a year will do the same thing.

Natural vibrations from playing are probably better and more detailed than the chock treatment with 50/60Hz, but this takes a lot of effort and time. Playing a vibrated guitar will keep it developing nicely, only from an advanced starting point.

If not played, the guitar will revert and lose sustain, volume, and tone. But it doesn't take as long to get it going again as a new guitar with added vibration or playing.

It works. At least it has worked on my first 200 renovations. Something tells me that it will work on number 201 too...
How does a guitar "revert" by not being played? It makes zero sense to me. Do the woods, glue etc. revert? I'm calling baloney on this.
__________________
1990 Martin D16-M
Gibson J45
Eastman E8D-TC
Pono 0000-30DC
Yamaha FSX5, LS16, FG830, FSX700SC
Epiphone EF500-RAN
2001 Gibson '58 Reissue LP
2005, 2007 Gibson '60 Reissue LP Special (Red&TV Yel)
1972 Yamaha SG1500, 1978 LP500
Tele's and Strats
1969,1978 Princeton Reverb
1972 Deluxe Reverb
Epiphone Sheraton, Riviera
DeArmond T400
Ibanez AS73
Quilter Superblock US[/I]
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-29-2023, 07:18 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,078
Default

O.P here. So fun to see this older thread resurrected.

Like so many things in the Acoustic guitar World, everything can be debated. I don't think there will ever be conclusive evidence one way or another. There are so many variables involved in each guitar. Thickness of top's, how the top was dried, age of the wood, builder's bracing...and so many more things that might effect the efficiency of just such a vibrating unit.

For myself I found it to work on brand new guitars. But not so much on well broken in guitars.

Now the Tonerite has competition with the Tone Traveler. And many who have owned both claim it to be even better. Alas, it is quite a bit more expensive so I will have to pass on that for now.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=