First build blues...

[ClaptonWannabe2]

Stuck at neck joint along with fretboard and slotting fret board. I am STUCK. No progress is being made. The longer I look at it, the more I hate it.

I feel I have reached a point where I just need to start putting this thing together, and to quote a movie, "if it dies, it dies.."

I fully expect this guitar to hold tune about as well as a First Act guitar or to collapse upon itself under tension, like a black hole.

[Talldad]

Some days it just be that way!

My first guitar was the same, it took a full year before I had the gumption to hack into the body making a tapered dovetail joint.

When I did it it wasn’t a pretty job, what I learnt was that the art of the craft is hiding mistakes, not necessarily avoiding them.

Good luck.

[Skarsaune]

To paraphrase a guy I used to work with, it’s just a dumb piece of wood.
Don’t let it get the best of you. Mistakes or mis-steps go in the wood stove/fireplace/fire pit.

Take small steps, but take steps. Every day, try to do one little thing. Calculate your fret spacing, or print a template. Arrange a miter box or stop block. Make test cuts in a piece of scrap and check the fit of your fret wire.

In a week, your progress will be significant.

Get off the forum and make some sawdust.

[Alan Carruth]

Slotting the fretboard and setting the neck are two very difficult jobs. I remember how hard it was to learn those things, and my students remind me of it whenever we get to those tasks. The only way to get through these things is to have a system.

For the fret slots; the important things here are to get things measured out correctly, and then cut the slots where you want them. I use a metal rule to transfer the fret locations onto the fretboard from a calculated table. Clamp the rule down in three places, so that there is no chance that it could shift when you remove one clamp. I start with '0' on the rule at the nut, and transfer the locations from a table of 'nut to fret' distances. I then remove the rule to scribe the lines, using a knife and a square against one straight edge that is parallel to the center line of the board. Then I clamp the rule down the other way, with the nut mark at the distance given on a table of 'bridge to fret' distances, and check everything (so, if the scale length is 25.4", that's the mark on the rule that would line up with the nut mark). I have found that it's too easy to make the same mistake twice in a reading, ending up with a fret that's, say, .1" off, when using the same table to both mark and check. By reversing the rule you get different numbers, and are less likely to make that sort of mistake. If a scribe mark is off a more than half the kerf width, I obscure it and replace it with a mark in the correct location. If it's less than a kerf width off I'll mark it to cut to one side or the other of the line.

Once you have the marks you can cut the slots. I used a small hand saw that makes the right width of kerf. I cut on the line, centering the saw cut at either end first, and then catching the middle of the slot. This is not easy. It would be a good idea to practice on something softer than the usual fretboard wood until you can get it right. I'll note that these days I only slot fretboards whe I want to use an unusual wood, such as persimmon, that I can't get in a pre-slotted board. I learned how to do this forty+ years ago when you could not buy them pre-cut:most of my students buy them.

Setting the neck is a matter of doing one thing at a time, very carefully. You need to get the neck length right, get it properly centered, match two angles (up and down, and left and right), and then set the tenon to the correct depth. The angles and distance depend on the shoulder of the tenon, which, of course, also has to fit the end of the box with no gaps, so you get that first, with the tenon such that it only drops in part way, and then trim the tenon to drop it the rest of the way. It really helps if you don't have the head to finished, so that you can adjust the length by trimming off the face of the head a bit. That way you only have to get the length 'close' with the shoulder of the tenon.

You will need a sharp chisel. Sharper than that: you need to be able to take transparent shaving, or less, off end grain. The biggest problem my students have is taking to much off at a time on this step. The less material you remove the less trouble you can get into.

Start by getting the tenon pretty well centered but over size, so that the neck doesn't drop all the way in. If its a tapered dovetail joint leave yourself plenty, since removing material from the shoulder will deepen the engagement of the tenon, and make it narrower at the base so it drops in deeper.

Shape surface of the shoulder to the correct contour at something like the right distance. Many guitars these days are designed with this area of the side flat, which makes it relatively easy to get this surface right. If it's curved you're in for some 'fun'. Since the neck doesn't drop in all the way you'll need to use a good straight edge to check the surface vertically to see that it's flat that way even where it doesn't touch the side yet. While you're at it, make sure the sides are flat too...

Once you get the shoulder right you can check the center line of the neck against that of the top, and correct the angle of the shoulder side-to-side to get that right (assuming that the tenon is centered). Did I mention that you need a sharp chisel so that you can make fine adjustments?

Once you get the center line to line up you'll need to get the vertical angle correct. Usually the surface the fingerboard should project out to where it just hits the top of the bridge; you can make up a shim to mimic the fretboard and use a straightedge to check this. With luck you'll be removing only a little material at either the top or the bottom of the shoulder.

At this point you can trim the tenon so that the neck drops almost all the way in. This will allow you to make fine adjustments on the centering, and all of the angles (one at a time!) without too much danger of dropping it in too far. In the end you'll be 'flossing' the surface of the shoulder with sandpaper to make fine adjustments. Put a piece of clear packing tape on the back of the paper; this helps hold it together and also to slide on the side easily as you draw it through.

If you're going to glue in the neck you'll need to chalk fit the tenon. Chalk the inside surface of the mortise, and insert the neck. There will be a chalk mark on the side of the tenon wherever it touches. Remove the chalk from the surface with an even sharper chisel than you've been using: at this point you're looking to remove dust. Keep checking and trimming until you get chalk everywhere on the tenon, and the neck drops in to the right depth. When it's right it 'clicks' into place.

Again, this is probably the part that gives my students the most trouble, and the biggest reason for that is trying to move too fast, taking off big shavings. The rule here is :"The slower you work the quicker you get done". Is that a koan?

[phavriluk]

It's too late to affect the results for OP, BUT for anyone considering building a guitar, I suggest not building in the conceptual and geometric complexity of a dovetail into the first project. I suggest a good look at Goodall and Huss & Dalton neck attachment techniques, diametrically opposite dovetails. I hear their stuff don't sound bad. Neither does Collings, Bourgeois, and Taylor. Gaze at them, too.

[ClaptonWannabe2]

Thank u all for the input. I’d like to find an online course or YouTube course. I’d LOVE to take a course,but as mentioned the time away from home and materials I could buy a Martin and a Bourgeois.

My neck angle will be a tad high. I have seen some say (they are minority) the straight edge can be above the bridge. Basically just clear of it. This is where I will be.

[H165]

This is where I will be.

If it's a steel string this is where you are supposed to be.

[Skarsaune]

Originally Posted by ClaptonWannabe2

Thank u all for the input. I’d like to find an online course or YouTube course.

Robbie O’Brien has some excellent online courses. As I recall, you don’t have to buy the entire course, but can pick and choose lessons as needed.
Google O’Brien guitars for his site. He also does a Luthier Tips du Jour series for LMI on YouTube.

I’ve used/reviewed John Hall / Blues Creek Guitars three part series on fitting a dovetail neck over and over. Free on YouTube, recommended.

[ClaptonWannabe2]

Originally Posted by H165

If it's a steel string this is where you are supposed to be.

So are you saying I did something correctly? Or are you toying with me in hopes of seeing a guitar with higher action than a Cello?

[charles Tauber]

I believe you have fallen victim to a common occurrence for novice builders: you don't have a plan to follow.

Many novice builders gather information on how to make a guitar from many sources - from on-line forums, from articles, books, videos... Trying to take a little from one source and a little from another source requires the novice builder to do something that he or she doesn't really have the experience to do: to become a system integrator. That is, to have a bird's eye view of the overall design and building process, and integrating and sequencing each manufacturing operation, step by step.

My recommendation is to follow one known successful source of information - be that a book, a video, a specific luthier, whatever. Do whatever that specific source says to do from start to finish. That way, if you follow the steps he or she recommends, the way he or she recommends they be done, the chances of your finished results being a well-playing, good sounding instrument are greatly increased. It also provides you direction at each step of the way, telling you exactly what to do and how to do it.

There are, for example, a dozen methods that can successfully be used to layout and cut fret slots. Rather than try to wade through each possible option, and try to chose from them the "best", pick one source of information/method and use that.

Part of what goes into the selection of a single reference source is the technology that is used in that source. For example, some guitar making methods use nearly all hand tools, while others rely much more extensively on machinery and specialized jigs and fixtures. Chose one that is commensurate with your shop resources, be they CNC, traditional machinery, or just hand tools.

As Alan points out, cutting fret slots can be as simple as using a ruler and pencil to layout the fret locations, with the cutting being done with a backsaw and a square. I did it that way for years. It can also be accomplished with methods as complex as a CNC machine. (I recently, for the first time, slotted a fingerboard using a laser engraver, literally two minutes of machine time - once one has created the CAD drawing/digital data to drive the laser.) It can also be accomplished with a variety of methods that are in-between.

[Carey]

To the OP: I hear you, and have been there; sometimes still am there.
There is good advice from experienced people in the thread, and taking
it in *well* is a good idea, but you are not necessarily wrong in this quote:

> I feel I have reached a point where I just need to start putting this thing together, and to quote a movie, "if it dies, it dies.."

I often have to learn like that, too. Try not to waste too much wood, if you
do it that way (sometimes plans can be made ).

C.

[Nahil.R]

Originally Posted by Skarsaune

Robbie O’Brien has some excellent online courses. As I recall, you don’t have to buy the entire course, but can pick and choose lessons as needed.
Google O’Brien guitars for his site. He also does a Luthier Tips du Jour series for LMI on YouTube.

I’ve used/reviewed John Hall / Blues Creek Guitars three part series on fitting a dovetail neck over and over. Free on YouTube, recommended.

I second this recommendation. I have purchased parts of the course and he explains in a s straight forward way. Good starting point.

Nahil.

[redir]

I never found cutting fret slots to be difficult. It sounds to me like you are overly concerned about their accuracy. They need to be accurate for sure but the accuracy is well within human capability so stop worrying about it. I do it exactly the way Alan described except I don't do the reverse measurement which sounds like a good idea to me. This method is more or less right out of Cumpiano's book. IMHO you don't need slotting jigs and so on, just a real sharp back saw with the proper kerf. TBH I purchased a couple pre-slotted fretboards and measured them and found that they were no more accurate then what I do by hand and in fact were slightly less accurate.

I like to have a zero fret slot too and not start from the end of the board. That way I can saw through the slot which shortens the distance of the end of the fretbaord to the first fret and so on just a hair which is a trick in compensating the nut end.

One thing Alan mentioned in brief which I bring up again because it's important is to make one edge of the FB dead strait then draw a center line parallel to that straight side before marking out. Then once all your frets are marked out saw the kerf. Then this is when you shape the FB to your dimensions using the center line as reference.

I like to use a brand new blade in an exacto knife for all markings.

As for the neck joint, that comes down to what Charles said, you should have had that planned out a long time ago. What joint are you going to use? What ever it is draw it out and stick to your plan.

So get back in your shop and git er done! Just do it. Having the attitude that if it dies it dies is a good one IMHO. Often times the best teacher is the mistake. So don't fret over it and get that fretboard done

[Alan Carruth]

What Charles said.

[BEJ]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I believe you have fallen victim to a common occurrence for novice builders: you don't have a plan to follow.

Many novice builders gather information on how to make a guitar from many sources - from on-line forums, from articles, books, videos... Trying to take a little from one source and a little from another source requires the novice builder to do something that he or she doesn't really have the experience to do: to become a system integrator. That is, to have a bird's eye view of the overall design and building process, and integrating and sequencing each manufacturing operation, step by step.

My recommendation is to follow one known successful source of information - be that a book, a video, a specific luthier, whatever. Do whatever that specific source says to do from start to finish. That way, if you follow the steps he or she recommends, the way he or she recommends they be done, the chances of your finished results being a well-playing, good sounding instrument are greatly increased. It also provides you direction at each step of the way, telling you exactly what to do and how to do it.

There are, for example, a dozen methods that can successfully be used to layout and cut fret slots. Rather than try to wade through each possible option, and try to chose from them the "best", pick one source of information/method and use that.

Part of what goes into the selection of a single reference source is the technology that is used in that source. For example, some guitar making methods use nearly all hand tools, while others rely much more extensively on machinery and specialized jigs and fixtures. Chose one that is commensurate with your shop resources, be they CNC, traditional machinery, or just hand tools.

As Alan points out, cutting fret slots can be as simple as using a ruler and pencil to layout the fret locations, with the cutting being done with a backsaw and a square. I did it that way for years. It can also be accomplished with methods as complex as a CNC machine. (I recently, for the first time, slotted a fingerboard using a laser engraver, literally two minutes of machine time - once one has created the CAD drawing/digital data to drive the laser.) It can also be accomplished with a variety of methods that are in-between.

About the best post on what some novice builders do; over thinking by getting too much information. I might add, then trying to reinvent the wheel without every building a wheel.