The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-20-2018, 01:20 PM
fwphoto fwphoto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 375
Default Fishman Platinum Pro Question

I posted this question in another thread but figured I might get a quicker answer if I started a new one. Sorry for the double post if you read the previous one.

I was playing with a band using the DI from my Genz-Benz Shen 85 to feed the house but am thinking about going solo again. I'll be starting with very small venues & want to use my Genz-Benz Shen 85 as a combo. I will use ch. 1 for guitar(s) & ch. 2 for vocals, possibly adding some onboard reverb.

I'm using K&K Minis in both of my pup'd guitars & would like to add a full-feature pre-amp & a couple of effects to the signal chain. Been looking at the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ/DI or possibly the Fishman ToneDEC. Both have 1/4" jacks labelled "amp output." I've been reading previous posts about these Fishman units & nothing has been said about the "amp output" circuitry.

Does anyone use one of these pre-amps into a combo amp instead of, or in addition to, using it as a DI? Does using the "amp output" jack to your combo eliminate any pre-amp stacking issues? It would seem to be there specifically for that purpose. I'm thinking I'd keep all the controls flat on the combo's ch. 1 when using one of these Fishman with it.

Thanks,

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-20-2018, 04:08 PM
lschwart lschwart is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 2,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fwphoto View Post
I posted this question in another thread but figured I might get a quicker answer if I started a new one. Sorry for the double post if you read the previous one.

I was playing with a band using the DI from my Genz-Benz Shen 85 to feed the house but am thinking about going solo again. I'll be starting with very small venues & want to use my Genz-Benz Shen 85 as a combo. I will use ch. 1 for guitar(s) & ch. 2 for vocals, possibly adding some onboard reverb.

I'm using K&K Minis in both of my pup'd guitars & would like to add a full-feature pre-amp & a couple of effects to the signal chain. Been looking at the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ/DI or possibly the Fishman ToneDEC. Both have 1/4" jacks labelled "amp output." I've been reading previous posts about these Fishman units & nothing has been said about the "amp output" circuitry.

Does anyone use one of these pre-amps into a combo amp instead of, or in addition to, using it as a DI? Does using the "amp output" jack to your combo eliminate any pre-amp stacking issues? It would seem to be there specifically for that purpose. I'm thinking I'd keep all the controls flat on the combo's ch. 1 when using one of these Fishman with it.

Thanks,

Frank
The amp outs on these units is exactly what the name suggests. It's same output as the DI out, but in unbalanced form for sending to an amp on stage with you. This is indeed how you would connect to your Shen if you were using one of these units as a preamp/DI/effects unit ahead of the preamp in your Shen. You could also use them to split your signal between the amp and the PA.

Louis
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-20-2018, 06:33 PM
fwphoto fwphoto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 375
Default

Thanks Louis,

Your answer is exactly what it should be. Its certainly what I assume to be the case.

I've been reading too many threads on impedance matching outs & ins & they don't make much sense to me. None of them seem to directly match the others!

- K&K output: 1 M Ohm (input of K&K Pure Preamp)
- Fishman input: 10M Ohms (from product spec. sheet)
- Fishman amp out: 1k Ohm (from product spec. sheet)
- Genz-Benz 1/4" input: 150 kohms (from product spec. sheet)

Doesn't look like it should work on paper, but . . .

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-20-2018, 06:56 PM
lschwart lschwart is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 2,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fwphoto View Post
Thanks Louis,

Your answer is exactly what it should be. Its certainly what I assume to be the case.

I've been reading too many threads on impedance matching outs & ins & they don't make much sense to me. None of them seem to directly match the others!

- K&K output: 1 M Ohm (input of K&K Pure Preamp)
- Fishman input: 10M Ohms (from product spec. sheet)
- Fishman amp out: 1k Ohm (from product spec. sheet)
- Genz-Benz 1/4" input: 150 kohms (from product spec. sheet)

Doesn't look like it should work on paper, but . . .

Frank
I think you may be misunderstanding what "match" means in this case. The rule of thumb to keep in mind is that the input impedance should always be higher than the output that's going into it. The usual scale is that the input impedance ought to be about 10x higher. That's what's meant by "matching."

So there will be no problem in any of these cases. The K&K needs to go into a very high impedance input (1 megOhm or higher is best), and that's what the Platinum Pro or the K&K Pure preamps give you. The amp out of either of the Fishman units you mentioned earlier will be plenty low for going into the 1/4" input of your Shen, although not as low as the DI outs of those units, which are designed to go into the mic inputs of a mixer (or of an amp that has them) which need very low impedances.

Louis
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:25 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,518
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fwphoto View Post
Thanks Louis,

Your answer is exactly what it should be. Its certainly what I assume to be the case.

I've been reading too many threads on impedance matching outs & ins & they don't make much sense to me. None of them seem to directly match the others!

- K&K output: 1 M Ohm (input of K&K Pure Preamp)
- Fishman input: 10M Ohms (from product spec. sheet)
- Fishman amp out: 1k Ohm (from product spec. sheet)
- Genz-Benz 1/4" input: 150 kohms (from product spec. sheet)

Doesn't look like it should work on paper, but . . .

Frank

I'm a bit confused by your first post.... do you intend to keep using your amp? Or DI out to something else?

On paper, like the list above, you need the K&K Mini pickups, then the (1 M Ohm) K&K Pure Preamp first, then plug in to your Genz, then run the DI out to a mixer/PA.

I just wrote somewhere else that I have the old Genz 60 Stereo and the spec sheet says the input imp is 330 k Ohm....whatever the reason, no idea, the guitars with K&Ks sound great DIRECT in it!

But in Fishman Aura pedal, with 10 M Ohm and the Aura off - way too much bass and boom. I have read that this is caused by the impedance mismatch.
It is great with a Fishman undersaddle with pre or Baggs Element.


BluesKing777.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:33 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fwphoto View Post
Thanks Louis,

Your answer is exactly what it should be. Its certainly what I assume to be the case.

I've been reading too many threads on impedance matching outs & ins & they don't make much sense to me. None of them seem to directly match the others!

- K&K output: 1 M Ohm (input of K&K Pure Preamp)
- Fishman input: 10M Ohms (from product spec. sheet)
- Fishman amp out: 1k Ohm (from product spec. sheet)
- Genz-Benz 1/4" input: 150 kohms (from product spec. sheet)

Doesn't look like it should work on paper, but . . .

Frank
You are confusing "matching" impedance with "bridging" impedance". The later is at issue in this thread, not the former.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-21-2018, 03:06 AM
fwphoto fwphoto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 375
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluesKing777 View Post
I'm a bit confused by your first post.... do you intend to keep using your amp? Or DI out to something else?
Yes, I'm going to keep using the amp. I was using it before as my pre-amp & using the DI output to the board while also using it as my floor monitor. Now I'm going to just use the amp for small venue amplification but want to add a more featured pre-amp & some effects to the signal chain between the guitar & the amp. I just want to make sure the new components play nice with each other & the amp.

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-21-2018, 03:08 AM
fwphoto fwphoto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 375
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
You are confusing "matching" impedance with "bridging" impedance". The later is at issue in this thread, not the former.
So, do I have a problem with the ""bridging" impedance anywhere in the signal chain between the guitar & the amp?

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-21-2018, 03:11 AM
fwphoto fwphoto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 375
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lschwart View Post
I think you may be misunderstanding what "match" means in this case. The rule of thumb to keep in mind is that the input impedance should always be higher than the output that's going into it. The usual scale is that the input impedance ought to be about 10x higher. That's what's meant by "matching."

So there will be no problem in any of these cases. The K&K needs to go into a very high impedance input (1 megOhm or higher is best), and that's what the Platinum Pro or the K&K Pure preamps give you. The amp out of either of the Fishman units you mentioned earlier will be plenty low for going into the 1/4" input of your Shen, although not as low as the DI outs of those units, which are designed to go into the mic inputs of a mixer (or of an amp that has them) which need very low impedances.

Louis
Thanks Louis,

I think I get what you're saying. Looks like all should work as planned.

Take care,

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-21-2018, 03:21 AM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,518
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fwphoto View Post
So, do I have a problem with the ""bridging" impedance anywhere in the signal chain between the guitar & the amp?

Frank

I would drag out the old user manual, or look online for the pdf....your amp has all kinds of goodies like my 60 (GB).
ie. the 1/4” inputs are smart inputs....they take the pickups nicely, but also recognise the line inputs!
You also have an effects send/return at the back if you want to echo, echo, echo without upsetting your current input settings.....


BluesKing777.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-21-2018, 09:23 AM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 42,558
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fwphoto View Post
I posted this question in another thread but figured I might get a quicker answer if I started a new one. Sorry for the double post if you read the previous one.

I was playing with a band using the DI from my Genz-Benz Shen 85 to feed the house but am thinking about going solo again. I'll be starting with very small venues & want to use my Genz-Benz Shen 85 as a combo. I will use ch. 1 for guitar(s) & ch. 2 for vocals, possibly adding some onboard reverb.

I'm using K&K Minis in both of my pup'd guitars & would like to add a full-feature pre-amp & a couple of effects to the signal chain. Been looking at the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ/DI or possibly the Fishman ToneDEC. Both have 1/4" jacks labelled "amp output." I've been reading previous posts about these Fishman units & nothing has been said about the "amp output" circuitry.

Does anyone use one of these pre-amps into a combo amp instead of, or in addition to, using it as a DI? Does using the "amp output" jack to your combo eliminate any pre-amp stacking issues? It would seem to be there specifically for that purpose. I'm thinking I'd keep all the controls flat on the combo's ch. 1 when using one of these Fishman with it.

Thanks,

Frank

Hi Frank

I use the Fishman Platinum Stage model with K&K Pure Mini pickups all the time, without issue, or any side effects from the 'apparent' impedance mismatch. As I recall this has very similar specs to the Fishman Platinum Pro model.

I send the ¼" out to the stage amp, and the XLR to the house, and this allows me to adjust the stage amp's settings without affecting the house mix. This keeps the sound techs happy, and I can adjust both stage volume, and tone so the stage sound is to my satisfaction.

Actually I see K&K Pure mini pickups preamplified (successfully) with Fishman, Baggs, Raven, DTAR, Pendulum, and Behringer (DI ADI21 for $30) preamps. All of them help the K&K sound better than without a preamp, and all of them have the simultaneous ¼" and XLR DI output functions.

I actually prefer the Fishman Platinum Stage to the Pro model. The Stage model can be powered by phantom from the board, and has sweepable mids, and auto ground lift, plus selectable bass cut (and it is half the price of the Pro).

The tuner in the Pro is crappy. It DOES have a brilliance control which the Stage model doesn't. I sure don't need it. My 'stage' model goes in my gear bag and is frequently used for people who don't have a preamp, but do have a K&K Pure mini installed.

__________________

Baby #1.1
Baby #1.2
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Baby #05

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-21-2018, 10:28 AM
lschwart lschwart is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 2,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fwphoto View Post
Thanks Louis,

I think I get what you're saying. Looks like all should work as planned.

Take care,

Frank
You're welcome. I'm sure that sdelsoray is correct about the terminology, but the main thing is that your proposed use is exactly in line with what these pieces of equipment are designed to work together and do.

FWIW, I use a similar unit, the Radial PZ-Pre to interface with both my combo amps and my PA system. For the PA system I use the DI outs of the Radial. For the amps (a Genz Benz Shenandoah ProLT, which has the same 1/4" inputs as your Shen, and a Fishman Loudbox Artist) I use the Radial's "amp out."

One question: the main reasons I use the PZ-Pre are 1) that it provides two input channels, so I can use two different guitars on stage and switch between them with my foot and, 2) so I can switch the pedals I put in the effects loop of the unit on and off, along with a boost, with one foot tap. If I didn't need these functions, I would simply go into the amps. The Shen 85 has a pretty nice feature set, including semi parametric mids, onboard effects, 3 different DI outputs, and an effects loop. Are you sure you need a a separate preamp/DI?

Louis
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-21-2018, 12:36 PM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 13,538
Default

I'm using a Platinum Pro with my D18 with JJB pickups (same as K&K) into a Fishman Loudbox Mini and/or a D.I into a board in a church P.A. or into my Yamaha mixer into powered speakers. No issues.
__________________
Nothing bothers me unless I let it.

Martin D18
Gibson J45
Gibson J15
Fender Copperburst Telecaster
Squier CV 50 Stratocaster
Squier CV 50 Telecaster
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-21-2018, 04:04 PM
fwphoto fwphoto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 375
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluesKing777 View Post
I would drag out the old user manual, or look online for the pdf....your amp has all kinds of goodies like my 60 (GB).
BluesKing777.
Absolutely right. I'm re-thinking the whole thing over.

Primarily, I'm trying to add reverb & chorus to my guitar chain. The Shen has reverb but I intend to use that for the vocal channel only as those settings will probably be different from what I want for guitar. I know there's an effects loop but just thought it might be a "cleaner" setup having whatever pedals/boxes at my feet with one cable running to the amp.

Thoughts?

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-21-2018, 04:11 PM
fwphoto fwphoto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 375
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Actually I see K&K Pure mini pickups preamplified (successfully) with Fishman, Baggs, Raven, DTAR, Pendulum, and Behringer (DI ADI21 for $30) preamps. All of them help the K&K sound better than without a preamp, and all of them have the simultaneous ¼" and XLR DI output functions.
I have a PUTW Power Plug that I got a while ago when I was using their SBTs. It may just be the boost I need to feed more signal to the amp. I'll try that first & if it doesn't work well there are a bunch of really good preamps around to check out.

Thanks for the reply!

Frank
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=